Wayne Shorter: Visionary, Innovator, Icon and Human Being
Wayne Shorter has long been considered one of the greatest modern composers and musicians of American music. His career reads like a Who’s Who of the genre, starting with Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers, then the Miles Davis Quintet, followed by solo fame and the founding of fusion super group Weather Report. His collaborations extend beyond jazz greats such as Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter to include Carlos Santana, Joni Mitchel, Milton Nascimento and Steely Dan, just to name a few.
In Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity, acclaimed producer and director Dorsay Alavi moves beyond typical music doc territory to capture the essence of the man who touched so many lives, including her own. As Shorter’s long-time friend and music-video collaborator, Dorsay paints an intimate portrait and cinematic ode to a truly American visionary, innovator and icon.
Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity is a three-part docu-series streaming on Amazon Prime from August 25th 2023, which would have been Shorter’s 90th birthday.
"There's so many layers to Wayne, but I would say mostly, he's a very, very principled person. And I believe that he has always been very authentic and true to what he has always done on an artistic level, [and] in life as well." - Dorsay Alavi
Time Stamps
00:00 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Dorsay Alavi, and her film, Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity
02:49 – Dorsay explains what Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity is about
05:44 – How Wayne Shorter ‘grew to greatness’
09:31 – Dorsay on Wayne Shorter’s influence on her, her family, and his high principles
12:09 – Wayne Shorter’s spirituality and elevated spirit
14:25 – How Dorsay first met Wayne Shorter
16:53 – How the idea for Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity came about and the film’s long gestation
18:55 – Dorsay’s approach to making the film
20:30 – What it was like working with Wayne
23:08 – Dorsay discusses the type of documentary she wanted to make
24:06 – Wayne Shorter’s inner child
26:11 – What’s next for Dorsay
Resources:
Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Dorsay Alavi
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 142: Wayne Shorter: Visionary, Innovator, Icon and Human Being
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (00:56)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Zero Gravity is an intimate portrait and cinematic ode to jazz giant Wayne Shorter's life and music. Long considered one of the greatest modern composers and musicians of American music, it is Shorter's life that has been an inspiration to all who have known him. Producer and Director, Dorsay Alavi, joins us to talk about her longtime friend and mentor, and the documentary that was a lifetime in the making. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:36
Dorsay, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Dorsay Alavi 00:40
Very good. It's good to be here.
Matthew Sherwood 00:42
Well, it's great to have you on. As our listeners and viewers should know after seeing that intro, or listening to it, we're talking about Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity. It releases on August 25 this year, on Amazon Prime, on what would have been Wayne Shorter's 90th birthday, who unfortunately passed away earlier this year, but after a very extremely fruitful and long life. So, welcome again to Factual America, and congratulations on the release. It must be quite a relief for you and, yes, congratulations.
Dorsay Alavi 01:19
Yeah, thank you. It's been a long journey. But we're finally here.
Matthew Sherwood 01:23
Yes, and we're going to talk about that journey in a bit, but maybe for listeners who probably haven't had a chance to see this - this will be embargoed till I'm not exactly sure when but just before, right around the release time - what is Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis.
Dorsay Alavi 01:44 (02:49)
Well, it's actually my cinematic portrait of Wayne Shorter's life and music, and I weigh heavily more on his life. The music is very important, but he is such an enigmatic, amazing human being, and my focus was to tell his story in three parts, and three pivotal moments of his life and music, and how [his] life informed his music.
Matthew Sherwood 02:13
Indeed, and - but I think, probably, first, people probably come to this knowing him through the music, and what an incredible career he had. Absolutely amazing. I mean, it's jazz icon after jazz icon gets mentioned in your film. It's all the - it's the typical thing that those first name, you know, you say Miles, John, Art, Herbie, everyone knows exactly who you're talking about. But is it fair enough to say that people don't usually just say, Wayne. I mean, he's - I think anyone who knows the music knows who Wayne Shorter is, but he is a bit more, as you say, enigmatic, not quite the household name that many of these other giants were?
Dorsay Alavi 02:57
Well, we're hoping that's about to change, because I think that Wayne Shorter does deserve to be a household name. He has certainly contributed to American music and American history. And that was the impetus behind doing this documentary was that I felt that the general public should be aware of his contributions, because they're vast. And it's not just in the genre of jazz.
Matthew Sherwood 03:21
Indeed, indeed. I mean, it's - well, it starts off with jazz but jazz fusion - I mean, it's just a litany - Joni Mitchell, Milton Nascimento. I mean, it's...
Dorsay Alavi 03:34
Carlos Santana.
Matthew Sherwood 03:35
... yes, yeah. Santana. I mean, where do you stop with this film. I mean, it's - I guess it gets overused, but it's fair enough to say that he was a visionary and a pioneer.
Dorsay Alavi 03:47
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 03:48
Yeah. And if there was - if we did Mount Rushmore for jazz, you could make a good argument, he should be on it.
Dorsay Alavi 03:54
That's absolutely right.
Matthew Sherwood 03:58
So, what's interesting about your film, because as you say, it's not just about the music, it's also about a portrait of him as a man and his life. And you've spent a lot of - well, he was more than a jazz musician, let's start there. I mean, philosopher - Joni Mitchell even mentions him as sort of a painter, painting with notes, you know; what should people know that they don't know about - I mean, without giving away the whole film, people should just watch the three episodes - but what is this other side of Wayne Shorter's life that people may not know about?
Dorsay Alavi 04:39 (05:44)
Well, you know, the story really is about how he grew to greatness. And so much of that is he was a Buddhist and his philosophy, he was - I think, in a lot of ways, what Wayne did was he spoke through his music he was having a dialogue with his audience at all times; raising people's frequency beyond, you know, the intellect. He was trying to say things that were formless; like your virtues; fearlessness. You are the master of your own destiny, and he really lived by those principles and, you know, so many people they're spiritual, but when it comes down to it are they really practising that every single day of their life? And Wayne, he was that in every sense of the word. So much about Wayne is that he was very - he was not behind the scenes, he was a leader in a much more subdued, reserved manner, but when you were in his presence, you could feel what emanated from him was greatness, and he was interested in every single person that he met. He was interested in your story, he was interested in your well being, and that I was always so fascinated that every single person who crossed his path, he was interested in their story. So, there's so much about Wayne that's interesting, but he also had this childlike demeanour that was so profound but childlike, he had maintained that free spirit of a child and the exploration that children have. And he applied that to his music. And he applied it to his life in many ways.
Matthew Sherwood 06:20
Yeah, I think... go ahead.
Dorsay Alavi 06:23
Well, he also started as a visual artist. So, when she said paint with pictures, he is very visual. And he always said I'm making - my music is making movies without pictures. And so, he was very visual in his compositions as well.
Matthew Sherwood 06:38
Yeah, I think it's interesting too, because he has this - yeah, you're right, he's this avid fan of cinema and film. And, well we've had other docs on, we've had Miles Davis, we had one about James Baldwin, and James Baldwin is similar. They're very similar kind of individuals, this kind of, I guess, it's about Hollywood at the time, and how we absorbed these sorts of images and what it was telling us about our societies and things, and it's throughout his career. I mean, I love even the stuff - not to give - you know, spoiler alerts - but even this, telling people to watch a film that everyone just agrees is absolutely horrendous, but he even gets - but then he actually gets a joy out of it, because there's a point to that, because there's a point...
Dorsay Alavi 07:27
He gets something out of everything. There's [always] something profound that he can glean from every situation. And that's what's so fascinating about Wayne.
Matthew Sherwood 07:37
Yeah. And so, as you said, his Buddhism informed this, he practised it for over 50 years, but there was something there as well before he even found Buddhism. And you talked to - I think it was Art Blakey, or someone else talked about the, you know, he had the imagination of a child, still, throughout his life. But you spent a lot of time with him, I gather, because I've been watching the film, and I've seen a lot of different, you know, it's not just one sit down, you've had a lot of time with him. Any insights into what was going into - what was and still is, in many ways, going on in Wayne Shorter's head?
Dorsay Alavi 08:19 (09:31)
Well, that I probably can't answer. But I can tell you that, you know, I've known Wayne since 1994. And he was a very close friend of mine as well. I did direct his music video for Verve records in 94, and that's how we met. And we stayed friends until the very end. So, I had many, many conversations with Wayne on a personal level and was very close to his family. I, you know, Wayne has had a profound influence on my family as well. And I think that he just does that for everybody who is close to him. There's so many layers to Wayne, but I would say mostly, he's a very, very principled person. And I believe that he has always been very authentic and true to what he has always done on an artistic level, but in life as well.
Matthew Sherwood 09:27
And so, what - I mean, that's incredible. It brings up many issues: how is it trying to make a documentary about someone who's also a close friend, you know, it can be a challenge, I'm sure.
Dorsay Alavi 09:41
It, you know, I kind of decided that I was going to always be a fly on the wall. And I was going to sort of be a conduit in a way. And, you know, I'm not the most obvious - I wasn't the obvious choice to tell Wayne's story. I think that most people thought, Oh, well, she's this young, you know, filmmaker, why her? But I think Wayne and I had a very unspoken understanding of each other. I just got Wayne immediately. A lot of people have a hard time understanding Wayne. But for me, it was very easy. I got it. We both think outside the box, we're always, you know, trying to push the envelope, we're always, you know, we're always looking for something different. That's where we were very aligned. And I think that he knew that I was going to really protect his story and tell it truthfully, without an agenda.
Matthew Sherwood 10:36
Well, isn't it - is it Herbie Hancock who says he wanted to get to know Wayne, and he wasn't sure if he was a genius, or if he was just crazy, and spent a lot of time with him, discovered he was a genius, but that also he thinks everyone else is a genius as well.
Dorsay Alavi 10:51
He does. He truly does!
Matthew Sherwood 10:55 (12:09)
So, you know, in terms of your relationship with him, that's how you've - I mean, almost - I mean, you mentioned his spirituality, I mean, it's almost sounds like things I hear about people who are described in the past as saints, that they're all so - they - there's some - you always feel like, you always feel like you are their best friend, almost. And then when you show up at the funeral, or whatever it is...
Dorsay Alavi 11:22
Yeah, yeah, then there's all those people there - !
Matthew Sherwood 11:24
There's all these, like, 2000 people there who say, Yeah, he was my best friend, you know?
Dorsay Alavi 11:29
Well, and it's totally genuine. I mean, he is very interested. When he is speaking to you, he's very present. And he is interested in your journey, and especially those who are close to him. He was a spiritual mentor for me, and for many people, but also a life mentor. Just watching him react to the things, the obstacles in his life, and how just never let it get him down. He always saw an obstacle as an opportunity. And, you know, most people, you know, when things get rough, it's tough. But with Wayne, his spirit was always elevated. And I - it was very inspiring to be around. And he was never - he's not a preachy person. That's the thing with, you know, he never preaches about anything. He shares things, and he's always thinking about things, but you're just inspired by being in his presence. And, you know, what can I say? There's so much to say about him!
Matthew Sherwood 12:27 (14:25)
Well, I mean, you just - you alluded to this as well, I mean, the thing that - and I wasn't necessarily aware of - but what a - you know, add to this a resilience and all the heartbreak that he did encounter in life. It was quite, I mean, we don't have to go down to details about that, but it is quite, I don't know, many famous, certainly jazz musicians have had their challenges and tough times. But just this these sort of, seemingly - seemingly, is probably the right stress on that word - random things that happened in his life that were, you know, could be full of heartbreak and were full of heartbreak. His first marriage, his second wife, and, you know, the tragic deaths and things like that. And yet, throughout the film, it doesn't seem like that's ever - I mean, really - I mean, it's this interesting insight that he thinks - he sees every - that there's a purpose to every single thing that happens, isn't there. There's a reason.
Dorsay Alavi 13:40
Yes. There's a reason, and when you view life as eternal, that gives you - he has a bird's eye view of life and situations. So, he's always able to rise above it, and look at it from that point of view. And it's interesting, when I met Wayne, I was right out of film school, I was directing music videos, and they said, Oh, we're going to - we want you to do a music video for a jazz legend. And I didn't know who Wayne Shorter was. I knew Miles Davis, I knew John [Coltrane], I didn't know who Wayne Shorter was. And then I went over there to interview him. And I decided he had such a playful spirit, I decided to ask him a few funny questions or unusual questions, like, What's your favourite animal and why? And if you're in a dark room in a vessel by yourself, what would you feel? And, of course, his answer was, I love eagles. And if I was in a dark vessel underground, I would fly, and I went, Oh my gosh, this guy's great. And so, we did the whole video up on a rooftop in the Scientology building in Los Angeles. And so, I feel that in many ways, that's how Wayne was; he always looked at everything from that point of view.
Matthew Sherwood 15:00
Well, I think this takes us to a good point for a break for our listeners and viewers. So, we'll be right back with Dorsay Alavi, producer and director of Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity. Releases on August 25. On Amazon Prime.
Factual America Midroll 15:17
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Matthew Sherwood 15:36 (16:53)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Dorsay Alavi, producer and director of Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity. Releases on August 25 on Amazon Prime. Dorsay, this doc was a long time in coming, wasn't it? Beyond that you've known Wayne for much of your life, did you actually - did this actually get started way back in 2015? Is that when this project kicked off, or even before that?
Dorsay Alavi 16:06
Oh, much sooner. Actually, in 2004, Wayne said to me - he had just his Quartet - he had finally found the right, you know, team for his Quartet; so excited about it, and I said, Well, somebody needs to start documenting this for you. So, I flew to Paris and started shooting. And then I really thought about it and I said, You know what, somebody needs to make a film about your life and what you're doing. And he was game and so we sort of started shooting then. And then there was a long period of time, where I was on another project and we stopped but whenever he was in town, I started shooting. But it wasn't until 2013 that I really started to put a crowdfunding campaign together and really said, We're going to do this now. It's now or never. And it started then, and we completed it in 2019.
Matthew Sherwood 17:03
Oh, wow. Okay, so - and how'd the crowdfunding go, you had like a donor event and all these things...?
Dorsay Alavi 17:09
Yeah, I started with the donor event. But then we did a concert fundraiser that Herbie Hancock hosted and a bunch of wonderful musicians played. We raised some funds there. And then we started getting funding and it just all started to come together. And I - at the same time, I was shooting all over the world. Wayne was never at home, I was always having to fly somewhere, because he was touring, and so I had to go wherever he was. So, it was, you know, it did take a lot longer because of that reason, but it was so fun to shoot. Shoot all those amazing concerts with him.
Matthew Sherwood 17:44 (18:55)
Well, we've already - and it's amazing footage what you have. I mean, we've already talked about what it was like trying to make a film as a friend, but how do you approach making a doc about a, at the very least a jazz icon and someone like Wayne, who's - I mean, can you live up to his artistic vision? How do you - or do you try to match that? What are you thinking when you go in saying how am I going to shape this project?
Dorsay Alavi 18:17
I actually don't do that. I actually don't think about what I'm going to do. I approached it very much like Wayne approaches his music: without a preconceived idea and allow the material to start informing me of what this is actually going to be. And I actually didn't know until I had shot everything. And I started going into the editing room and really starting to feel what was most essential about the film, but that always led me back to the human being, you know, and Wayne always says, Human being first, music second. And that's exactly how I approached making this film, is that I started with Wayne as a human being. What do I want to show people? What do I want to tell people about him? And what makes his story universal? Because this is not just about jazz, even though we cover it. And - but jazz is more than just even a genre, too, so, in many ways, I just went with who I knew, and all the interviews, the wonderful people I interviewed, I learned so much more about Wayne Shorter through other people as well.
Matthew Sherwood 19:22 (20:30)
Right. And what's it like working with Wayne. I mean, you - it's different than being a friendship. He's - you're very upfront. He's enigmatic. He's an introvert. So, could make him a potentially difficult subject to put in front of the camera when he's not performing, or not. How was that? Or was he trying to give you creative ideas and input as well?
Dorsay Alavi 19:50
No, not at all. I think what it comes down to is trust. I think when Wayne really trusts the person who's in front of the - who's shooting the footage or who's interviewing him, a lot comes out. And at the time, when you're talking to him, he's giving you a lot of information. And you may not grasp how potent that information is till later because there's - some of it's so profound, and so deep and over your head, but then when you - when I actually read the transcriptions, I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. What he's saying is amazing, amazing, yeah, but at the moment, you're having a conversation, and I'm trying to get through questions, you know. But there were - he gave me so much because there was a lot of trust between us because we had known each other for so many years. And I can always tell when Wayne is uncomfortable in a situation, he'll go, he starts speaking in riddles and parables, because he's trying to say something that's over the person's head, but I know what he's saying. I don't know. It wasn't very hard for me, because I know him so well. And maybe that's why. But yes, Wayne is a difficult person for a lot of people to understand. And part of the challenge in making the film was to edit it in a way so that people could understand what Wayne was saying, and pluck out those really potent anecdotes and make them tangible for people to get - Oh, okay, I get it. I get what he's saying.
Matthew Sherwood 21:28
Right. But it's even - but your film is so much more than that, obviously, it's more than just a bunch of talking heads with all these great anecdotes, which they're great, believe me...
Dorsay Alavi 21:37
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 21:38
... they're amazing, but - and you get some amazing people on there - but, you know, you pulled out all the stops, I think; you've got animation, you've got all kinds - and very kind of cutting edge stuff going on in terms of trying to bring out, put, you know, as you say, paint this portrait of this man.
Dorsay Alavi 22:03 (23:08)
Well, I didn't want to do a typical documentary, and I didn't want a do a jazz documentary. I wanted to make a film. And I treat - I'm a narrative filmmaker, so I approached it like a narrative. And I wanted people to feel like they were there in that time period. And that's what those portals are. They're representative of a certain time in his life, that was pivotal. And I wanted the audience to feel like they actually were there. And so, some of those recreations and the animation, and all of that really helped with - I didn't have any footage to work with. Wayne didn't have anything, for I'd say, the first, you know, 35, 40 years of his life. I didn't have anything. I had to recreate a lot of it.
Matthew Sherwood 22:49
He doesn't strike me as the type of man who would have someone with a video camera running around all the time.
Dorsay Alavi 22:55
I'm sure somebody did, but I didn't have access to it. It was hard to find!
Matthew Sherwood 23:01 (24:06)
But what's interesting is that it's - it often - well, I guess it often does come back to that inner child. I mean, doesn't he say towards the end of your film, it's - again, we're not giving anything away - but it all goes back to that sand lot outside of his...
Dorsay Alavi 23:17
... the vacant lot. Yes, it absolutely does. And he's always inviting people into that vacant lot, by the way...
Matthew Sherwood 23:23
Oh, is he...?!
Dorsay Alavi 23:24
... he loves to play, you know, he wants you to free yourself up and be authentic and play. And it is, it's what makes him such a great artist, in many ways, because he's not confined to anything. And nor does he want the genre to be confined in the same way.
Matthew Sherwood 23:42
And do you think that's sort of, you know, as you say, he's trying to talk to us through his music, and is that one of the messages he's conveying to us, that we just need to latch on to this inner child that we have...
Dorsay Alavi 23:56
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 23:56
... it's not - it's not weighed down by the expectations of adulthood or whatever it is, and can see the world differently, is that kind of...
Dorsay Alavi 24:06
Well, as a child, everything is possible, right? And you can make your dreams come true. And he is saying to you, you are the master of your own destiny. And you don't need to be fearful, and Never Give Up is his big one. You know, he wants people to live their fullest - to their fullest potential. And he feels that vacant lot for him is where - was the groundwork for everything that he did in his entire career.
Matthew Sherwood 24:39 (26:11)
Well, I will say he's - I mean, I was aware of his music and things, but I certainly wasn't aware of the man and the life, so it's quite an incredible - I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've had the luxury of seeing it before it's been released. So, I do recommend that everyone else do check it out when it releases on August 25. I think we're coming close to the end of our time together, but just - just want to say, what's next for you in terms of your career?
Dorsay Alavi 25:09
Well, I have a couple of projects. I am like I said, I'm a narrative filmmaker, so I am writing a series right now. And I am looking for maybe another doc, I don't know. But maybe hop over to the narrative side again for a bit.
Matthew Sherwood 25:27
So, do you - go ahead.
Dorsay Alavi 25:30
That was it.
Matthew Sherwood 25:31
You know, I was just gonna say, there are people who do both. There are people who try one and say never again. But how about - is making a doc harder than making a narrative? Is that an obvious statement? Or do you think it just depends?
Dorsay Alavi 25:51
It depends. I think, if you're going to do it like I did it, it is harder, because it took a really long time, but not necessarily. I mean, you have challenges in every, you know, medium. And I think that narrative film has its own set of challenge. It's a shorter process than documentaries. You're accumulating so much material. And then most times, you're actually writing the script in the editing room. I mean, at least that's the way that I did it. But I wouldn't say one is more difficult. I just think they're very different. The process is very different. But I loved making the documentary and I - it opened my eyes to other possibilities for sure.
Matthew Sherwood 26:32
Okay, well, I do hope after you've gone after your narrative experiment that you do come back to the documentary world, and we'd love to have you on again. And thank you so much for making this film. I really appreciate it. Just to remind our viewers and listeners we've been talking with Dorsay Alavi, producer and director of Wayne Shorter: Zero Gravity. Check it out. Releases on August 25, on Amazon Prime, on what would have been Wayne Shorter's 90th birthday. But as we've been saying - certainly as Dorsay has been talking, he's still very much in the present tense...
Dorsay Alavi 27:11
Very much so.
Matthew Sherwood 27:12
... as we talk, so, but he's - and always will be as long as people are playing his music. So, thanks again for coming on. We really, really appreciate it.
Dorsay Alavi 27:23
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 27:27
We hope you enjoyed that episode of Factual America. If you did, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. I would also like to thank those who make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who makes sure we continue getting great guests onto the show and everything runs smoothly. And finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 28:07
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