Are We Alone? UFO Encounters from around the World
Welcome to the first episode of the fifth season of Factual America! Joining host Matthew Sherwood is Yon Motskin, the director of Encounters, a new Netflix docu-series about four UFO/alien encounters from around the world.
Encounters tells a story that is both epic and intimate in its range. It not only explores what occurred when a diverse range of witnesses – including school children, hoteliers, law enforcement officials, and rescue workers – came face-to-face with the seemingly impossible, but what happened afterwards to them, and those who investigated their stories. Some were able to move on; others, though, were bullied, faced ridicule, and professional ruin. All, though, have stuck to their stories.
Matthew and Yon discuss what happened to the witnesses, their credibility or otherwise, and the profound differences between the interpretation of UFO sightings in Japan versus the US. They look at the nature of belief, and how what we believe can define our understanding of what UFOs may be. Yon also shares his appreciation for the involvement of Steven Spielberg’s Amblin Television in the making of the film.
For Yon, Encounters is fundamentally ‘a human story’ with themes such as ‘consciousness and communication’ at its core. Whether you are interested in UFOs, psychology, mysteries, or the workings of the human heart, this is an episode for you.
“I believe that they believe. Now, if whatever they say happened or not, I wasn't there, so, I couldn't tell you, but it's hard to discount... it's not one person in their backyard seeing something. It's dozens, and in many cases, hundreds of people all seeing the same thing, at the same time.” – Yon Motskin
Time Stamps
00:00 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Yon Motskin, director of Encounters
04:11 – Yon explains what Encounters is about
07:51 – Points of similarity between the four UFO sightings featured in Encounters
09:27 – Yon discusses whether or not he believes intelligent life exists on other planets
12:36 – Discussing the idea of belief and truth
15:12 – Trauma or Mental Illness: UFO Witnesses experience
17:58 – Discussing the inclusion of a self-confessed UFO hoaxer
22:02 – Encounters’ use of archive in telling the witnesses stories
24:04 – How Yon became involved with the Encounters project
25:35 – What it was like working with Steven Spielberg’s Amblin Television
27:29 – Japan’s very different way of interpreting UFO sightings
30:51 – Yon’s next film and discussing working in both the scripted and documentary space
Resources:
Encounters
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Yon Motskin
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Transforming the Planet: Discussing the Human Footprint
Last Flight Home: The Death and Life of Eli Timoner
Reimagine Wildfire: An Elemental Threat That We Can Control
Best Documentaries about Japan and Japanese History: In-depth Exploration and InsightsBest Best Documentaries about Hiroshima: Unveiling History and Impact
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 143: Are We Alone? UFO Encounters from around the World
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:04)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Our topic today is extraterrestrial life. Explosive new revelations from military whistleblowers of alien encounters, UFOs, and secret Pentagon programmes, as well as headline making stories and mainstream media outlets, such as the New York Times, have breathed a fresh urgency into a topic that has long been relegated to the realm of conspiracy. Join us in this season opening episode of Factual America as we talk with Encounters' acclaimed director, Yon Motzkin, about this cosmic detective story. What does he find? Stay tuned to find out.
Matthew Sherwood 00:48
Yon Motskin, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Yon Motskin 00:52
I'm good. Thanks for having me on, Matthew.
Matthew Sherwood 00:54
Yeah, it's great to have you on. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we're talking about the Netflix docu-series, Encounters, which releases - or released, depending on when you're hearing this - on September 27, 2023. So, welcome, again to Factual America. Congratulations on the release of this timely doc. That must be a great feeling to finally get this all wrapped up and out there to the public.
Yon Motskin 01:25
Thanks very much. It's been a long road. It took us about, you know, two years to make it from beginning to end. So, it's nice to finally see what people think, because for so long, it's just a handful of us working on it together. I'm very curious to hear what the audience thinks.
Matthew Sherwood 01:44
Well, I think they'll - well, I can't judge audiences, but I think they'll have a very favourable reaction to this. I mean, why don't we - since most people will not have seen this yet - what is Encounters all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis.
Yon Motskin 02:02 (04:11)
So, Encounters is a documentary series. I like to call it a 'cosmic detective story'. It's about the search for extraterrestrial life, and non-human intelligence, told through a very firsthand human perspective, and also a scientific perspective. We focus on four stories. And each of the four episodes tells one single story about a mass sighting somewhere around the world. And through that mass sighting, we explore a host of issues, social, psychological, cultural, and we essentially embed with people that experience this otherworldly phenomenon, and see what happened, and how their lives were affected by it: sometimes positive, sometimes negative. And it's also just kind of a really fun series of stories - series of mysteries.
Matthew Sherwood 03:00
I agree. I mean, you mentioned you dig deep into four encounters, now - and across the globe, which I found very interesting, because let's face it, UFOs and alien encounters usually tend to be a uniquely American phenomenon, something like - what - or has been 90% of the sightings or something like that number like that is - they're US based, but how did you settle on these four?
Yon Motskin 03:25
So, it's interesting. I'm not a UFO person. I was never really interested in the subject. I wasn't even really big into sci-fi. And when I came to this story, I was surprised by what you just said, which is that most of the material, the writing, the reports, the documentaries, the films, they're all American-centric. They're all military-centric, they often have a conspiratorial, more sensationalistic, approach. And as we - as me and my team did our research, we found that that's very much not the case, that's just the stories that are told. And that's very much yesterday's story. And maybe today's story, and we were interested in telling tomorrow's story. And what is tomorrow's story? Well, if you ask a lot of scientists and thinkers on the subject, they'll tell you that it's a global story, that it's a diverse story, that it's not about, you know, little green or little grey men. It's about more complicated things like consciousness, and communication, and humanity. And so, I was very interested in doing something different, and ultimately telling a human story. And so, we researched to find the most interesting stories. But we're also very interested in diversity not from a political perspective, but men, women, colour, geography, place, time, and also, kind of encounter and consequence of experience. And so, we found a great story in Texas from 2008, we found an awesome story in Wales in 1977. I learned pretty quickly that there's rarely if ever stories in Africa, or Asia, in the sort of UFO phenomenon world. And so, we found an incredible story in Japan. And then, you know, a very iconic, incredible one in Zimbabwe, which many viewers who have seen this may have heard of this story before, but not in the way that we tell it.
Matthew Sherwood 05:37 (07:51)
Yeah. And so, you're looking for diversity, and we'll probably talk more about that, but what unifies these four, do you think? What are the interesting similarities?
Yon Motskin 05:49
That's a good question. So, when you watch the whole series, even though it's seemingly four separate stories, the experiences are all - four different - when you watch the series, and you watch the four different stories, they're seemingly different: different places, different times, different people. But when you watch the whole thing, you start to see the similarities and echoes. And it's often the experiences are very similar. For example, people often see the same thing, the way that they describe what they saw, you know, for example, black triangle, where certain kinds of lights or a certain pattern of lights, many people talk about no sound, you know, that's something - that was a detail that was interesting. There's just no sound at all from what they saw. And maybe most importantly, is the profound effect that these encounters had on the people not just in the moment or in the day or that week, but often for years, and their whole lives after that experience.
Matthew Sherwood 07:01 (09:10)
And you - you know, no, indeed, and I think you talk about - I mean, even in the - I think it even says in the notes for the episode, it's true stories of encounters of otherworldly phenomena. And what do you think these otherworldly phenomena are? Do you believe intelligent life exists on other planets? That's a loaded question.
Yon Motskin 07:28
Yeah, I don't - you know, I went into this project, I didn't really think about it. Meaning I didn't think about whether or not I even believed, but if you asked me when we started this, I would say 'no, I don't believe'. After doing this, I don't know, I can't tell you. I'm not qualified to say if it's real or not. But I do know that I believe what these people believe. And that's what we set out to do. We set out to document people who are - we believe were very credible, who had genuine experiences. And we didn't talk to a lot of people because we felt that they weren't credible. And so, the people that we chose to include were ones that were credible, either because, you know, they had a lot to lose. You know, we spoke to bank presidents, we spoke to high school math teachers, we spoke to principals of schools, successful business people, police officers; people with a lot to lose, people in the public, people who don't really have any incentive to talk. In fact, many of them have a disincentive because coming out in this way for them, brings stigma or brings shame. And for some of them, it even brings trauma, they lose their job, they lose money. And so, I can tell you that I believe that they believe. Now, if whatever they say happened or not, I wasn't there, so, I couldn't tell you, but it's hard to discount what a lot of them are saying. You know, especially because there's a lot of corroboration. You know, it's not one person in their backyard seeing something, it's dozens, and in many cases, hundreds of people all seeing the same thing, at the same time.
Matthew Sherwood 09:16
And I'll tell you because that was an unfair question, but it's also a bit of a trick question, in the sense that I had two follow-ups in mind. One - I'll tell you where I'm going with this - if you had said 'yes', I would have said, 'Well, you might have answered differently a few years ago', right, because of the stigma. And if you say 'no', then I would have said, 'Well, I probably wouldn't have asked you that question a few years ago because no rational - you would have presumed - no rational person would say yes'. And I think that's been a very interesting - I have seen all four episodes; so, one of the great aspects of this job of mine, I get to see it before it gets released, and I thought that was a very interesting part of the series about this sort of what - and capturing what all these people have had to go through, as you say, without having - you know, they have no reason to, any of them, to whatever - I thought the best one was - one of the ones was the kid from Wales who - well, now a man my age - who said, you know, what 10 year old goes looking for publicity? You know? So...
Yon Motskin 10:15 (12:36)
It's true. And it becomes - what became interesting to me, and to us, is this idea of belief. And, you know, but in many ways, belief, you know, do they believe what they saw? Do we believe them? Why do we believe, you know, the nature of truth, the nature of reality, it's sort of, it starts to get sort of philosophical and maybe a little bit woowoo fairly quickly. But if you sort of boil it down to things that we can relate to, which is somebody says that they had an extraordinary experience, why don't we believe them? There's one person, a very intelligent person, is a professor of religion in the film, who talks about religion. And she says - her name is Diana Pasulka - and she says something to the effect of 'Well, people that believe religion - people who are religious - they don't necessarily have evidence, yet they believe that unbelievable thing. Why is it that they believe that unbelievable thing, and yet with something like UFOs, where arguably, we have a little bit of evidence, we don't believe this unbelievable thing'. And so, it becomes some kind of a measure of the kind of person you are, it becomes a question of where you came from, the culture, maybe your values, it becomes a question of who we are as a - who am I, who are we, as they say in the film.
Matthew Sherwood 11:56
Hold that thought, and I'm going to give our listeners and viewers an early break. So, we'll be right back with Yon Motzkin, the director of Encounters, a four part docu-series that drops on Netflix on September 27.
Factual America Midroll 12:14
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up- to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 12:33 (15:12)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Yon Motskin, the acclaimed director of Encounters, a four part docu-series that is releasing, or released, on September 27 on Netflix. You're talking about, you know, some of these bigger, almost philosophical, questions that the docu-series raises. And it is a very interesting point about, you know, as I think you said at the very beginning, or maybe it was even offline, you know, you spent a lot of time with these people, interviewing them, and these people that have had these encounters, and sort of what strikes you, but it's like - and you even have some of these experts, acclaimed psychiatrist, who, you know, whatever has or hasn't happened, it, there's no signs in these people of psychosis or mental illness. And what they do show are - I'll let you say more about it, but they do show signs of having some sort of trauma or experience, is that right?
Yon Motskin 13:46
Very much so. I'm not a medical professional. So, I'm not equipped to comment on, you know, that. So, this is all coming from a filmmaker who spoke to them, but people took actions; you know, people changed their lives, people went through some - the people that we spoke to, clearly went through something. So, for example, we went to Zimbabwe, which there were kids at a school in 1994, 62 kids, that all said that they saw three spaceships land at 10:30 in the morning at recess in their playground, and some beings came out. And 62 kids saw this, and they all describe the same thing, and they all drew pictures, and all the pictures are remarkably similar. That was in 1994, which is about 30 years ago...
Matthew Sherwood 14:39
Right.
Yon Motskin 14:39
... and all we spoke to - in the film, we feature maybe six or seven of them, but we ended up speaking to offline 25, 30 of them, and they've all been impacted by this 30 years later, some positively, some have changed their lives. You know, some have moved to different places, taken on professions that is a direct result of what happened to them. Some, their lives have been ruined because of this experience. But all of them carry this - not all, most of them that we know of carry this thing to this day. And the same thing in Wales. And that story happened back in 1977.
Matthew Sherwood 15:18
I mean, that Zimbabwe example, I think of all the episodes, what's very interesting about that is you have the adamant naysayer. You know, spoiler alert, but, you know, it's - you have someone there, one of the six - well, or maybe it's the 63rd child, who's, like, 'No, no, I made this all up. I, you know, I instigated it. And all these people...' I mean, it is, these different perceptions are just - how do you square that, you know.
Yon Motskin 15:49 (17:58)
So, our job is - my job as a filmmaker is to sort of present it, and I think the most interesting way to do that is to present as much as we can in an interesting way, and then let the audience decide. I'm not here to tell anybody what is or is not happening, or how these people do or do not feel. But we hope to present it in a super interesting, super intriguing, mysterious, dramatic way. And then let the audience decide. The example that you gave is actually very interesting. So, there's a man - he's a man now, he was a boy at the time - his name is Dallyn, in Zimbabwe, and he was one of the kids. And he said that he made it all up. He said he made it up because he wanted to get out of a certain class, and he tried to create chaos, basically. And for the last 30 or so years, he says that everyone else has been lying. And it's funny because of the 50 plus people that I interviewed for the whole project, he was the one person that after we filmed with him, I said to myself, and to my producer, I said, 'I don't believe him'. And he was the one that was saying that aliens did not exist...
Matthew Sherwood 17:07
Right, right, right.
Yon Motskin 17:09
... but that's not to say that I do or do not believe in aliens, but something about the way he was telling the story. And then we even - I didn't even want to include him in the film, and then I had this - one of my editors, a great editor named Greg O'Toole said, 'Oh, we have to include him because that sort of speaks to the central conflict of the story'...
Matthew Sherwood 17:28
Right.
Yon Motskin 17:28
... and I was worried because I thought that would pull focus off the story. I didn't want this to be a story of 'Did it or did it not happen?'. To me, you know, and Amblin, and Boardwalk, and Vice, we were interested in talking about things like belief, and wonder, and awe; not debunking. We're not interested in debunking...
Matthew Sherwood 17:46
Right.
Yon Motskin 17:47
... other people, I think, can do that. And I was worried that including this person would do that. But we found that by including him, it actually made the people that said that something happened even stronger, because if you believe them, then, you know, in the face of somebody calling BS on what they're saying, it means that their story and their experience is just that much stronger. And so, I'm thankful to my editor for convincing us to include him. And by the way, I should say that boy who said he made the whole thing up, he said outright to me, he said, 'Listen, you may or may not believe me, and people out there, viewers may or may not believe me, you can include me or you can not include me in the story, but this is my truth, and I'm sticking with it.'
Matthew Sherwood 18:35 (22:02)
Well, I think that's a very good point. I mean, I had a similar impression as you, I will say, personally watching it, but you know, exactly. I mean, at the same time, he didn't - I mean, what would he gain as well from coming out and saying, you know, I don't know. But yeah, no, but it was - I don't think - I would agree with your editor, and now you obviously feel the same way, too. I mean, I don't think it's taken away. I think it certainly adds to it. It was a very interesting dynamic to that. And I think the other interesting story with that - and then also the kids in Wales - is this whole adulthood-childhood sort of dynamic. And, you know, these trained, seemingly excellent teachers, 'Ah, you know how kids can be, they tell fibs all the time,' and stuff like that. And you have these kind of dynamics playing as well. But yet here we are 40 years later, or 30 years - well, more like close to 50 years later, you get on some cases - you know, they're still sticking to their story. That thing has impacted them their entire lives. And I think - another aspect - I mean, we're here, we're a UK based podcast, and I've lived here for a while, but just that archive you've got of the 70s of the UK, and then having these people - that was incredible.
Yon Motskin 20:04
It's incredible. My favourite part in the Wales story, and in the Zimbabwe story is, you know, on one hand, it's tough to make a film that's set in the past, because you want to talk with the real people, but obviously, people age. What's incredible about the Wales story, and the Zimbabwe story, is the wealth of archive. And we were able to get archive of the characters back then. And then fortunately, we talked to them today, and we're able to cut them together, so, you see, you know, for example, Dave Davies, one of the characters in Wales, who got bullied, and this impacted his life, and we talked to him today, and we see him as a grown man. And then we directly cut with him as a 10 or 11 year old boy, talking about the same thing, and we see that - and we didn't show them any of the archive. So, they just - we see how they've changed, how they've not changed. I mean, it becomes, you know, UFOs have just become like a Rorschach test sort of on humanity, right? You could almost take sort of UFO out of the story and put anything else in; you know, it becomes something bigger, it becomes a story about, you know, media, right? How does the media treat us? Or how are we treated by the media? It becomes a story about pop culture, right? How are we influenced by what we see on TV? And then we say, 'Oh, I saw that silver thing', 'Well, did you see that silver thing, or did you just watch Close Encounters or Arrival.'
Matthew Sherwood 21:27
Right.
Yon Motskin 21:27
... you know, it becomes a story about parenting, right? And like, what kind of parent are you? Do you believe your kid when they tell you that something extraordinary, that you probably don't believe, happened at school? Or do you not believe them? It's interesting, it really, I have to say, it really moved me in many, many ways that I did not expect working on this and making this series of films.
Matthew Sherwood 21:56 (24:05)
And how did you become involved with this project? Was this your idea, or...?
Yon Motskin 22:01
I wish it was my idea. No, I was approached by - I've done - before this, I had done four films and projects for Netflix. So, I was approached by Netflix. And then separately, I had known the other companies, Boardwalk, Vice, and Amblin. And I actually - each of them approached me independently and said, 'Hey, we have this project'. I said, 'Oh, great. What is it?' And they said, 'Well, it's about aliens'. And I said, 'I am not an alien guy. I've never done anything about aliens. What is it about me that - ', And they said, 'It's because you're not an alien guy that we want you.' And then I actually wasn't - I didn't want to do it at first. And then I came back to them. And I said something about, you know, if we can tell it in - if we can focus on telling a human story, if we can tell a narrative and sort of not make it - you know, if we could tell a cinematic, human, narrative driven story, I'm interested, and fortunately for everybody, they were 100% behind us.
Matthew Sherwood 23:06
And you mentioned earlier that none of you were interested in debunking. And I guess that was the case - and was it fortuitous to having Amblin on board because of Close Encounters, and things like that. I mean, Amblin Television and the connections with Spielberg, and that sort of thing.
Yon Motskin 23:26 (25:35)
I mean, it's fortuitous is one of the things of having Amblin on board. I mean, of course, Steven Spielberg and his company Amblin have made, you know, some of the greatest and most seminal films of the last 40 or 50, you know, 40 or 50 years. And to have sort of their support and their vision, and, you know, I don't say this lightly, they were incredible. They never said, 'Debunk or not'. They never sort of told us what to do. They never told me what to do. I sort of proposed how I would go about it. And they fully supported that approach from the beginning. Amblin, Boardwalk, Vice, and Netflix; everyone was - you know, we were very - having that many people in a room, or in a virtual room, together, sometimes could be a recipe for trouble. In this case, we were all aligned throughout the whole process.
Matthew Sherwood 24:23
And I guess - you just said it took a virtual room and - I just put the numbers in my head, and it's took two years to make, or at least, so a lot of this was - you're having to do a lot of this during Covid, weren't you?
Yon Motskin 24:35
Actually, no. We started it in late '21...
Matthew Sherwood 24:39
Okay.
Yon Motskin 24:40
... I mean - I made another series that was entirely during Covid, entirely remotely. This one - I mean, Covid is, I don't know....
Matthew Sherwood 24:50
... it's still around, but yeah.
Yon Motskin 24:51
... It's still around. So, we started it at end of '21 and then we finished it early '23.
Matthew Sherwood 24:56
Okay, okay. So, not as limited as you were obviously, as you know from your other experience.
Yon Motskin 25:03
No, we - excuse me, we travelled around the world for it. I went to Zimbabwe twice. We went to Japan, Texas multiple times, Wales, London. I logged a lot of miles in 2022.
Matthew Sherwood 25:20 (27:29)
You know, one thing we haven't really talked - we haven't talked too much about the Texas and Japan experiences, but did Japan surprise you? That must have been - you know, I don't know, we - I don't know what your conceptions are of Japan, but it seemed - I was really - found that interesting, this sort of - it was very interesting insights in terms of the Japanese culture and how they can, how they can square these seemingly sometimes contradictions and differences.
Yon Motskin 25:51
That's exactly why I wanted to do a story in Japan, because we see in that story how, whereas in America, oftentimes, when somebody says they see lights in the sky, or a UFO, it sort of goes into the realm of military or is it a threat; they're here to attack us or takeover us or colonise us or whatever. In Japan, it's the complete opposite. They're here to help. So, that's an incredible story. We were interested in that, for a number of reasons. One, doing a story in Japan, because we'd never seen a story in Japan before. Two, because of the different perspective, you know, it was not threatening, it's about healing and balance, and maybe they're here to help. We were interested in exploring this idea of nuclear power, because that story takes place in 2011, when the terrible earthquake and tsunami and then the nuclear power plant meltdown, and suddenly there's lights in the sky and strange activity going on around that. And we're interested in exploring that potential connection, which has been documented. But, you know, the perspective of Japan culturally, it's fascinating. You know, they don't talk about the sort of - natural and supernatural are not two separate things, as they talk about in the story. You wouldn't even talk about them as two separate things. They're just one. And so, this idea of lights in the sky? Well, maybe it's extra-terrestrials, or UFOs. Maybe it's what they call hitodama, which is souls of the dead. Or maybe it's something else entirely. It could be, you know, ghosts or - and I was very fascinated about that intersection of the extra-terrestrial, supernatural, and spiritual.
Matthew Sherwood 27:48 (30:51)
I think I - and also my children would be happy, I think I finally have an appreciation for anime, or kind of an understanding, a better understanding, of it. I think, well, and, you know, I think that it's - just to say from my own personal standpoint - it's not the - I didn't know what to expect going in. It's not the series I expected, but it's an exc - you know, it's - and for very good reasons - it's not this militaristic, scientific debunking, or not, or promoting. It is a very real and human, you know, human experience. And, at least as I get older in life, I realise more and more how much we all see things and perceive things so differently, and even those same people who were in the same room. So, thanks for making this. I mean, before we go, just want to ask, what's next for you?
Yon Motskin 28:47
Thank you. So, I'm making another feat - I'm making a feature doc for Netflix. And I'm writing a new film, scripted film, and I'm trying to drum up something, maybe we could do with, you know, the partners and I all had such a good time, so Amblin, we might do another thing together both documentary and scripted.
Matthew Sherwood 29:09
So, you have a foot both in scripted and factual, don't you - in documentary - you know, but you go - I mean, some people start one, transition to the other, or, you know, but you kind of - are you going back and forth between the two?
Yon Motskin 29:23
Yeah. I originally started in scripted. I'm a writer, director. And then at a certain point, I don't know 5, 6, 7 years ago, I got bored and - not bored: I got tired of waiting around because scripted takes a long time to make...
Matthew Sherwood 29:36
Right.
Yon Motskin 29:36
... and so, I started making documentaries, because I liked making things and you could move a little bit quicker. But I'm always interested in - so, I go back and forth. I write movies and I direct. So, I do go back and forth. And now I think films and series are at a place where documentaries are, you know, look like scripted films, and a lot of scripted things have the feel of authenticity. And I think there's a blending, and I'm very interested in the blending of truth and fiction, in form and in content. And so, at the end of the day, if it's a good story, then it's a good story.
Matthew Sherwood 30:15
Well, on that note, I completely agree. And I think maybe we end on that note and give you the last word. So, Yon Motzkin, thank you so much for joining us here at Factual America. It's been a joy talking with you. And just to remind our listeners, we're talking with Yon Motzkin, director of Encounters. If you haven't checked out the four part docu-series yet, it is on Netflix, certainly as of September 27.
Matthew Sherwood 30:46
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 31:26
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