Phil Spector – Music Legend and Murderer
Phil Spector was a musical genius. His brilliance as a producer made him a legend. On February 3rd 2003 he shot Lana Clarkson dead. In 2009, he was convicted of murder, and died in prison on January 16th 2021.
Spector is a four-part Showtime docu-series (available to watch on Sky Documentaries in the U.K.). In it, series co-directors Sheena M. Joyce and Don Argott examine not only Spector’s ‘life and legacy’ but also the person of Lana Clarkson.
As they tell host, Matthew Sherwood, they want to make Lana ‘more than just a footnote in the Phil Spector story’ by bringing ‘her out as a fully fleshed out human being.’
In doing so, they take the viewer on a more challenging but ultimately more rewarding journey. The Phil Spector that they present is no monster. Rather, he is a deeply damaged human being; one whose flaws led ultimately to his downfall.
In this episode of Factual America we learn that in order to present as full a picture of Spector as possible, Sheena and Don spoke to a wide variety of people. Among them, the lead detectives in the Lana Clarkson murder case, as well as others with first-hand knowledge of some of the incredible stories told about Spector during his career. The docu-series even has recordings of Phil Spector speaking on the night of the murder.
With Matthew, Sheena and Don discuss the link between musical genius and mental illness – why it seems to affect artists and not people in other industries; the role of money and power, and whether we can still engage with the work of artists who have done terrible things.
They also shed light on who Lana Clarkson was. As Sheena says, Lana ‘was more than Phil Spector’s victim. She was a successful working actress... a daughter and a sister and a friend who by all accounts brought light and joy into the lives of everyone she met.’
Spector is the story of a tragedy, of a legacy corrupted, and two lives wasted. It is a story that moves in the light, and dark. In Factual America #120, go behind the scenes with Matthew Sherwood, Sheena M. Joyce and Don Argott.
“There have also been people that criticised us for contextualising Phil’s behaviour, as if that's somehow giving him a pass... it was important to us to present him as a multifaceted human being. He was a loving and devoted father to his daughter Nicole... It doesn't negate the fact that he murdered Lana Clarkson.” – Sheena M. Joyce
Time Stamps
00:00 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guests, Sheena M. Joyce and Don Argott, co-directors of Spector
02:36 – Sheena gives a short synopsis of Spector
03:44 – Don Argott explains who Phil Spector was
07:30 – How the Beatles changed everything, and Music Producer Phil Spector’s decline
10:16 – Sheena describes actress Lana Clarkson
16:08 – Don discusses some of the stories told about Spector, and his and Sheena’s desire to set the record straight on them
20:26 – Discussing mental illness and artistic genius
24:47 – How the rules of the arts allows eccentric stars to flourish
27:06 – The difficulty prosecuting attorney Alan Jackson had in selecting a jury for Phil Spector’s trial
28:42 – How should we remember Phil Spector: Sheena’s perspective
30:19 – The difficulties Sheena and Don had in making Spector
35:47 – Why Sheena and Don decided to make Spector now
39:24 – Mick Brown’s cassette tapes: Did they play a role in the murder?
45:25 – Discussing Vikram Jayanti’s documentary, The Agony and the Ecstasy of Phil Spector
46:58 – The importance Sheena and Don gave to obtaining first-hand accounts of Phil Spector and Lana Clarkson
48:16 – Don discusses what’s next for him and Sheena in their work
Resources
Spector
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Sheena M. Joyce
Connect with Don Argott
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 120: Phil Spector – Music Legend and Murderer
Matthew Sherwood 00:00
This is Factual America. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. A chance encounter between charismatic actress Lana Clarkson and legendary music producer Phil Spector ended in a fatal shooting that forever warped his legacy. How could one of the most important figures in 20th century pop music also be a monster? The four part docu-series peels back the layers of one of Hollywood's most tragic crimes to paint a more human portrait of Lana Clarkson and the deeply disturbed man convicted of her murder. Join me as I discuss Lana Clarkson and Phil Spector with Emmy nominated filmmaker Sheena Joyce and Don Argott, the directors of Spector. We assess the troubled legacy of one of the legends of the recording industry while celebrating the life of Lana Clarkson, one of the unsung heroes of Hollywood. Stay tuned. Sheena Joyce, Don Argott, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Sheena M. Joyce 01:03
Excellent. Thanks for having us.
Don Argott 01:04
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 01:05
Yeah, well, it's great to have you on. We're talking about Spector, the new Showtime and Sky Documentaries docu-series. It's been on Showtime for a little while now, and it premiered last Sunday here in the UK on Sky. So, welcome again. And it's a pleasure to have you on.
Sheena M. Joyce 01:27
Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 01:27
Yeah, Sheena; so, I mean, it may seem obvious given the title, but how we usually start things is ask our filmmakers: what is the film all about? So, what is Spector all about? Maybe you can give us a bit of a synopsis for our listeners and viewers who haven't had a chance to see it yet.
Sheena M. Joyce 01:46
Certainly. Spector is a four part documentary series where we re-examine the life and legacy of Phil Spector. I think we do it kind of through the lens of a post me-too movement, where we try and contextualise the events that lead to the night of January 3, 2003, when - I'm sorry, February 3, 2003 - when Lana Clarkson was murdered in his Pyrenees Castle home, and we try very hard to make Lana Clarkson more than just a footnote in the Phil Spector story, and to kind of bring her out as a fully fleshed out human being.
Matthew Sherwood 02:32
Yeah. And I can't believe I'm asking this question, but I also - I was talking to our producer here in this studio where I'm at, and he doesn't know who Phil Spector is. So, there's a generation out there who doesn't know who Phil Spector is, maybe you can, either one of you, Don, what might younger generations not know?
Don Argott 02:54
Well, I think, you know, everything has to be contextualised, given the time that it's placed. And I think in the world that we live in now, where information is so readily available, I feel like people know less now than they did, like - even though there's more access to information, I feel like the...
Sheena M. Joyce 03:12
Retention.
Don Argott 03:13
... the retention or the - you know, the, frankly, like you said, I think Phil Spector is a great example of someone who probably missed two generations already of people because they, you know, of the time that he kind of came up, but, you know, quickly, he was a, you know, kind of a phenom, you know, songwriter in the late 50s, really took to songwriting and the music of the day that was happening at the time with Elvis and, you know, that kind of, like, singer-songwriter, you know, emerging, you know, business that was happening in the late 50s, going into the early 60s before the Beatles kind of changed everything, but in that period of time, in, like, 1957-58, things were single driven, they were song driven, they weren't necessarily artist driven. And Phil came along and wrote a song called To Know Him Is To Love Him. And I think, even though there might be generations of people that don't know who Phil Spector is, I would guarantee that because his music is so ubiquitous and being used in films and advertising that they would probably know certain songs, but his first song was called To Know Him was To Love - Is To Love Him. And it was like a very earnest, beautiful, like very, of that time period, a very melancholy kind of longing, sad song. And that was - and I think he was 18 years old at the time? 17 or 18? He was, you know, just graduated high school. So, that became a huge hit, and in turn kind of launched Phil on this trajectory to be - he didn't really want to be somebody in the front, you know, as the artist; he wanted to be the producer, kind of pulling the strings in the background. Whether that was orchestrating, writing, or, you know, bringing writers into work with his new stable of artists, which were The Crystals, which is the Ronettes, you know, so everybody knows, you know, Da Doo Ron Ron, Be My Baby, You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'. I mean, the list goes on and on and on of the songs that this man was kind of behind and responsible for. So, and it wasn't until the Beatles came along in the early 60s that really reshaped the focus of things being producer driven, and more band driven, and that kind of, in a way kind of changed Phil's trajectory of what he had to do to survive in this industry. And then ironically, ended up, you know, coming in to save and salvage the last Beatles record, which was Let It Be in a legendary way that everybody kind of walked away and threw their hands up after these, everything was recorded, and Phil came in and kind of made sense of it all. So, he's responsible for, you know, Let It Be; so, you know, he had a very prolific career, but really, by 1980 - and he worked with Ramones - that was it, he was pretty much done. So, from 1980 on, you know, he - if you didn't know him, you know, in, you know, in the 70s, or 80s, likely in the 90s and 2000s, you probably didn't hear too much about Phil Spector.
Sheena M. Joyce 06:20
He was one of the first producers as stars, and he created a signature sound called the Wall of Sound that he became known for. And it kind of didn't matter which artist it was that he was working with, it was this signature sound that was made famous.
Matthew Sherwood 06:40
I think - well, thank you for that. I mean, I think anyone who wants to know more, I'm sure you can Google these things, and you'll find them. I mean, it's a - the Wall of - I mean, he was quite the innovator, right, and this Wall of Sound and what he did, and there have been documentaries, not even specifically about him, but related to this, you know, the Wrecking Crew. And we've had - we had a documentary on the show, program called Streetlight Harmonies, which is all about doo-wop, and some of the - many people you interviewed are on there, and your exec producers, Jonathan and Simon Chinn have been on this program to talk about Tina, and, you know, he, what many might consider one of the greatest songs ever recorded, River Deep - Mountain High, you know, and that - we were talking before we started recording, that's a huge hit over here. And he had his in the UK, and he had his hands in on that. And the one thing I'm thinking of is, there's a - in that doo-wop documentary, they always - all of them say, well, things were going really well, and then the Beatles came across on that plane, and we knew that was the end, basically, for us. But Spector is actually on that plane. I mean...!
Sheena M. Joyce 07:53
Yeah. Spector's literally on the plane, with the Beatles coming over. They were huge fans of The Crystals and the Ronettes, and that's how he started his relationship with them. So, he was over on that flight and did kind of see the writing on the wall, I guess, somewhere over the Atlantic.
Matthew Sherwood 08:11
And as someone who liked to be the centre of attention, he's not anymore. And yeah, as you say he - yet, I mean, that's the amazing thing. Not only did the last Beatles album, but then he even does John Lennon's albums, and Imagine, and those...
Don Argott 08:28
... George Harrison as well.
Matthew Sherwood 08:29
George Harrison, all these - was it Concert for Bangladesh, all that - that stuff he's got his hand in on that. But even by then, he's starting to be a shadow of his former self. Now - but as you've already mentioned, and I think that's what's - I really thought was one of the many things that was really excellent about this docu-series is that there is another person who's inextricably linked with him now, and maybe we should talk a little bit - and then you do. You give her - you - I think it was very good - I mean, a lot of these - personally, a lot of these things will say they do look at the victim and they do talk - but I do feel like it was, you know, as much as it should be, there was an equal attention to both parties, especially because of the damage that has been done to her reputation in the past. So, maybe we can talk about who Lana Clarkson was.
Sheena M. Joyce 09:26
Sure, Lana Clarkson was more than Phil Spector's victim. She was a successful working actress. She was a daughter and a sister and a friend who by all accounts brought light and joy into the lives of everyone she met. She was labelled by the media at the time as 'B-movie actress, Lana Clarkson', that moniker came in every headline and every news piece in every television story about her, and it kind of served to paint this narrative that she was somehow disposable or less than, on the wrong side of 40 looking for fame, you know, desperate, and went home with this crazy man. At least here in the states that was the impression that was given. So, it was important for us to get to know the real Lana Clarkson from those who knew and loved her best. And to, as I said, make her more than a footnote in Phil's story. And what we found was that she was very successful as a working actress, you know, there's this, I - also this feeling that if you're not a star or a millionaire, you're somehow a failure, but she had made her living as an actor her whole life. You know...
Matthew Sherwood 10:52
She's in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. I mean, that was like - you know, these sorts of things. It was like, all these cultural touch points from the...
Sheena M. Joyce 11:00
Yes, she was...
Matthew Sherwood 11:00
... from the 80s and 90s.
Sheena M. Joyce 11:00
... the barbarian queen. I mean, she was very famous...
Matthew Sherwood 11:04
Roger Corman's films, you got Roger Corman interviewed in this doc.
Sheena M. Joyce 11:07
Yes. She was in a ton of TV shows. And, you know, speaking of seeing the writing on the wall, as she approached forty she knew that she wasn't going to be cast as the ingenue anymore, and was very clever in reinventing herself and started to get into comedy and stand-up comedy, and started to book roles as more of a character actor. And, in fact, you know, she had this terrible accident that she broke both of her wrists and was sidelined for a long time. And so, she took this job at the House of Blues to kind of get back into the world again. At the time, the Foundation Room was the place to be in Hollywood. It was very hard to get into, you know, the hottest of the hot people in LA would go there. And she cleverly got a job, you know, working the list basically at the Foundation Room. That's how she came into contact with Phil Spector. But she was always thinking about next steps in her career. And like I said, on a personal level was smart and funny, and engaged, and was thinking of the future. She had gigs booked the next week. So, it was important for us to kind of dispel this myth that she was this washed up B-movie actress and really show her for the woman she was.
Matthew Sherwood 12:34
Yeah, and I think - and as - what this film's also about is, it's chance encounters, right, and...
Sheena M. Joyce 12:42
...timing, as Phil says...
Matthew Sherwood 12:42
... and timing as Phil...
Sheena M. Joyce 12:43
... many, many times; it's timing, and as you'll see in the series, there are these moments that you look at what if. You know, what if Phil's father hadn't committed suicide when Phil was nine years old? Would his family have moved to Los Angeles? What if Lana's father hadn't died in a mining accident when she was a young girl? Would her family have moved to Los Angeles? What? What if Lana hadn't broken her wrists? Would she have...
Matthew Sherwood 13:12
... dancing - Irish dancing with a bunch of kids at a Christmas party, yeah.
Sheena M. Joyce 13:14
Right. And it was little kids at a Christmas party. Would she have had to take that job at the House of Blues? What if she had recognised him. You'll see in the series, she doesn't know who he is when he comes through the door, right before closing time and actually mistakes him for an old woman, and kind of spends the rest of the night trying to make up for that. Which is, if she hadn't done that, would she have agreed to have one more drink with him at the end of the night? There - it's all about timing. And Phil was a little obsessed with timing in his own life as well.
Matthew Sherwood 13:48
Yeah, and I think - I mean, one thing else that comes across too, about her, which is impressive is that, it's, you know, she's not just not a victim. She's a very strong, resilient woman who's trying to do - savvy, who's trying to do things the right way...
Sheena M. Joyce 14:05
Right.
Matthew Sherwood 14:05
You know, as you say, in the light of me-too, and all that sort of stuff, in terms of how she's trying to make her career, and what she had to face, and her friends have talked. I mean, it's - and like you said, bad accident, gets back up on her feet and says, Okay, I'll work at the House of Blues, you know, and try to make my way. So, and then, as you say, had plans for the future. I mean, as we - I think some of us are old enough know, even before this happened, there were these little stories, these snippets, you'd hear about Spector and things, but he did have quite the, as the euphemism used to be, 'colourful history'. But - didn't he - I mean, what is - as it came out, and it came out in the trial, I mean, this was not some - being in some sort of situation like this is he made it - you know, we don't need to go into details of the trial; you go - you do - I think it's especially episodes three and four, but he had this history of abuse and threatening people. I mean, he's quite - I mean, what about, there's that Leonard Cohen incident that I wasn't aware of, but maybe that's a good way of illustrating...
Don Argott 15:18
Well, yeah, I mean, I think one of the things as, you know, whenever you get introduced to a story like this, it's like, well, what's your base level understanding of it. And for me, like, I knew a lot about Phil Spector as someone who's passionate about music and specific types of music and the Beatles, and, you know, so I knew a lot about Phil and then, you know, you have to - and then you go through life and you hear stories: Oh, yeah. That guy's crazy; he, like, you know, held the Ramones at gunpoint; at his house, and like, he locked his wife in a basement and had a glass casket, and you start to hear all these stories and, you know, before the internet, you know, that stuff...
Sheena M. Joyce 15:27
Urban legends.
Don Argott 15:30
... yeah, that stuff became, is like, kind of urban legend and it's just kind of passed on. And that's how things kind of frankly, morph into like, you know, he pulled the gun to, like; you know, he pulled a guy's head off one time, you know how it is.
Matthew Sherwood 16:08
Yeah.
Don Argott 16:09
So, things go a little crazy that way. But I think for us going into it, it was important to, like, you know, almost like, forget what we knew or what we thought we knew. It's like, let's look at this for real, let's dispel rumours that, you know, because Marky Ramone famously has said, you know, he never pulled guns on us; that - I don't know where that story came from. And so, you know, you hear that and you're like, alright, well, maybe the other stuff isn't true. And then, you talk to Darlene Love, and she's like, Oh, yeah, no, Phil came in the studio with a gun...
Sheena M. Joyce 16:36
He had guns all the time.
Don Argott 16:39
Yeah [...] we were talking about the buckwheat one with - do you believe he killed buckwheat? Oh, yeah, that's all he ever talked about.
Sheena M. Joyce 16:47
That's all he ever talked about.
Don Argott 16:48
So... But I think that there is - you know, we wanted to set the record straight, you know, you have four hours to spend, to really get to know and understand who these two people were, you know, what went on in their lives that led them there. Let's get past the kind of salacious stuff, and the big hair, which is, of course, everybody's like, Oh, the hair, the afro, you're going to talk about that? Its like, yeah, we're going to talk about it, but we got four hours, it's like, gonna take like, two minutes.
Matthew Sherwood 17:18
Right, right.
Don Argott 17:20
So, you know, we wanted to get in there and talk to people that had first hand knowledge. And, you know, we were speaking with Rob Fabroni, [...] producer, and was a friend of Lana's, you know, crazily he had this connection with Phil Spector and Lana. But his connection with Phil was more, you know, when he was a young kid, he kind of snuck into recording studios to see if he can learn, you know, from, you know, people that were working at the time. And, you know, he sat in on a couple of Phil Spector sessions when he was young. But he told us this story, which is second hand, which is pretty good, you know, without getting it firsthand, but he was there, or he got the story directly from Leonard, who said that, you know, Phil was, you know, they were working in the studio together, and I think they were both in kind of a really, you know, vulnerable spot. Both men had gone through divorces, and dealing with their drinking and alcohol and drugs, or whatever. So, they were probably both not in the best frame of mind, working together, but I think that's what attracted them to each other, to begin working together, anyway, because Leonard Cohen working with Phil Spector actually doesn't make any sense at all.
Matthew Sherwood 18:32
Wall of Sound for Leonard Cohen!
Don Argott 18:35
And if you listen to that record, it doesn't make any sense, frankly, and I don't think the public bought it either. But, you know, the story goes that, you know, they were working all day, and it was a long day, and they were tracking, and then, you know, Phil wanted Leonard to go in the booth and sing and, you know, Leonard, you know, was like, Yeah, you know what, Phil, let's do it tomorrow; I'm kind of beat tonight. And Phil insisted, and he's like, No, I'll just do it tomorrow. And then, you know, Phil pulled the gun on him, and said, Go out there and, you know, sing the fucking song. And, you know, and then, of course, the follow up question is, why the hell did Leonard Cohen come back the next day if he got a gun pulled on him? And again, Rob says in the thing, I think, you know, it was exciting. He never felt that he was really in danger. He was like, This guy's a little off. And this could be an interesting dynamic. And as an artist, I guess you put yourself in that situation. It's like, Alright, let's see where this crazy train goes, you know, and I think, you know; so, that's that story, but that hadn't been really told before until we got it from Rob.
Sheena M. Joyce 19:11
We also spoke to the lead detectives in the case who interviewed Leonard Cohen directly, and so, they had firsthand knowledge from Leonard of the story, and he did corroborate it. So, I know that some people have come out and said that that never happened, and that Leonard said it never happened. But we know from the detectives that he did say it was true. To Don's point, he also said he never felt truly threatened, but he did, in fact, confirm that Phil Spector pulled a gun on him in the recording studio. He did it to John Lennon, he did it in a Darlene Love session. As you'll see in the trial, he did it to dozens of women over decades. So, what is it about - particularly in the arts - this idea of the musical genius, that mental illness gets dismissed as artistic greatness? And how do we get to the point where Lana Clarkson is dead in February of 2003? You know, I think this industry in particular is littered with stories like this, you just look at Bill Cosby, and Harvey Weinstein and frankly, Kanye West, these days, there's something about artistic geniuses that get a pass for their mental illness. But eventually the, you know, chickens come home to roost and bad things happen.
Don Argott 21:06
I would also say it's not just artistic genius. It's money. I mean, that's power. Well, Harvey Weinstein, I wouldn't say he's an artistic genius, but he's very powerful.
Sheena M. Joyce 21:15
Yeah, but there's also lots of extremely wealthy surgeons that don't go in the operating room and pull a gun. I think there is something about the entertainment industry in particular, that I don't know what it is, that they get away with this kind of behaviour. I think it is something about artists that are given a pass for crazy.
Matthew Sherwood 21:38
You know, I was gonna say, let's go to break, but I'm not, but I think in terms of artists, I mean, there's examples - I've lived in this country for over twenty years now, and there's some - even some British artists that are, maybe our US audiences wouldn't know, but who were considered geniuses themselves. They weren't entertainers. But then the truth comes out and horrible stories about abuse and things they've done to children and stuff, and it's like - and so, there's, I hear what you're saying, I completely agree; you know, there's the money element, there's - why these people give a pass. But then there's also this element, what is it about - and obviously, we're not saying all artists, but there is a segment of an artistic community, mostly - almost all male, that have these demons. And it's a - it's not an easy one, I imagine - maybe that's something we can talk about when we come back from the break. If you have any insights you think on what...
Sheena M. Joyce 22:41
Listen, we all have demons. Women have demons, too, but we certainly don't have the reputation that the men do about pulling guns on other people.
Matthew Sherwood 22:51
Right, right.
Don Argott 22:52
Yeah, but the tide's changing.
Sheena M. Joyce 22:53
Well, here's hoping.
Matthew Sherwood 22:54
Yeah, yeah, okay. Alright, we'll be right back with Sheena Joyce and Don Argott, directors of the new Showtime and Sky Documentaries docu-series, Spector.
Factual America Midroll 23:06
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 23:25
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Sheena M. Joyce and Don Argott, directors of the new Showtime and Sky Documentaries docu-series, Spector, about the troubled musical genius Phil Spector and Lana Clarkson, who was a aspiring - more than aspiring - actress in Hollywood. So, we were talking about - well, I think maybe we kind of drew a line under that conversation about geniuses and male geniuses...
Don Argott 23:59
I did want to add - there was one thing that I wanted to add, which I think, you know, and, you know, when Sheena talks about doctors and lawyers who might have their own demons but they don't go into work and exhibit those demons, or put it on display. But I think the arts are different in the sense that they're not adhering to any kind of strict rules about like, when you show up for work and - you know, like, as an artist, what, you know, you don't have - you're not clocking in, right. So, I think it takes people that are - that can't really work within that system - in the confines of that system. they gravitate towards being able to be loose and free, and then I think you get more eccentric behaviour in general, whether it's legitimately people are off, you know, like, with a bipolar - some kind of mental disorder, or they're just, they just don't think the way that everybody else thinks, and that's what we love about artists and frankly, that's what we celebrate about artists, right, is that, you know, that sometimes the people that approach things are the innovators that bring things to - that haven't been done before. And I think you put people like Phil Spector, you put the Beatles in that category. You know, you put a lot of artists that have had monumental impact in our - in the world. But, as, you know, when you get into this stuff, and when you get into it on a granular level, you start to see that like, yeah, you know, we have done a poor job, I think, as a society, elevating these people, and putting them on some kind of pedestal, because they're always going to disappoint us whether it's what happens in the case of Phil Spector, where, you know, he's a convicted murderer, or in the case of Harvey Weinstein, or Bill Cosby, where this, you know, decades of sexual abuse and abuse in general have went unchecked. You know, those are the things that we have to figure out how to either separate so that like, you know, as we talk about this now, and I think what the series opens up, it's like, how can you listen - can you still listen to Phil Spector's music?
Sheena M. Joyce 26:05
Can you separate the art from the artist?
Don Argott 26:07
Can you listen to Michael Jackson, anymore? Can you watch Miramax movies, anymore? Can you watch The Cosby Show anymore? Like, these are - everybody's minds...
Sheena M. Joyce 26:15
Everybody's mind's different.
Don Argott 26:16
... is gonna be different in that, but it does bring up this really complicated relationship that we have with people we don't know. But with things that are produced by these artists that mean so much to us. I mean, people, you know, when you're talking about Phil Spector's music - and I think one of the things that was interesting when we're talking to Alan Jackson, who's trying to put a - select a jury, he's got to find people that...
Sheena M. Joyce 26:41
He was the lead prosecutor in the case.
Matthew Sherwood 26:43
Right.
Don Argott 26:43 Right,
Matthew Sherwood 26:43
Right.
Don Argott 26:44
He's trying to find jury members that are not - that don't have 'You've Lost That Loving Feeling' as their wedding song, that...
Sheena M. Joyce 26:53
[...] I would hope they didn't choose that one!
Matthew Sherwood 26:59
I think I've been to that wedding.
Don Argott 27:01
Yeah, the same wedding that they have 'Every Breath You Take' as the wedding song. Weird stalker song.
Sheena M. Joyce 27:10
The point being that Phil Spector's music was the soundtrack to people's lives. And there are lots of memories made to this beautiful music. And they had a hard time - the prosecution had a hard time finding jurors who were unaffected by music producer Phil Spector.
Matthew Sherwood 27:32
I mean, I was going to eventually ask you this question, but I think I'll - should ask it now, since you've already sort of raised it. I mean, you pose this to some of the subjects in the film. I mean, how are we to remember Spector? And how do you think we should remember him? And as for you, as filmmakers, how would you answer your own question on that?
Sheena M. Joyce 27:52
Well, there's an interesting idea about legacy, too, right; it's not just how you remember someone. Certainly. when Phil died, there was a lot of criticism in the UK about how he was remembered, you know, in the headlines. And I remember the apology had to be made because of how he was identified when he first died, in the press. Personally, I am conflicted as I am about a lot of these, you know, musical, and artistic geniuses. I can't listen to Michael Jackson music, anymore. But, you know, I still listen to Kanye West music. I haven't crossed - it hasn't crossed that line for me yet.
Matthew Sherwood 28:43
Yeah.
Sheena M. Joyce 28:43
I think it's easier for people to listen to the music of Phil Spector, because Phil was the producer and behind the scenes, and there's, you know, a layer removed there, where you're hearing his work, but you're not necessarily hearing him. I don't know what Christmas would be without Phil Spector's Christmas album; you know, we just got through the holiday season, and, you know, that music is everywhere. It's a very personal decision. And it's a very individual line. And the series isn't going to end with a neat answer. And I don't have a very clean answer for that. It's just - it's a feeling you get and everyone's line is going to be different, I think.
Don Argott 29:28
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that as, you know, as filmmakers, specifically doing documentaries, I mean, I think one of the success of this series for us was being able to show both sides - a lot of times, you know, documentaries get criticised for being, you know, you know, too one sided or that they're trying to make a case or, you know, for one side...
Sheena M. Joyce 29:54
They have an agenda.
Don Argott 29:55
... or have some kind of agenda and I think most filmmakers, most documentary filmmakers, always try to get everybody to talk, right. Because that's - it doesn't help when you're just telling a one sided thing. The problem is, it usually becomes difficult when, you know, let's talk about if it's a film about pollution, you know, obviously you have, you know, the environmentalist, and you want the polluters, too, right. But the polluters don't look at it as they have anything to gain by going on camera and saying their position. So, it then in turn, becomes this very one sided, you know, documentary in the sense - but for us, we wanted it - we certainly came into it with the angle of wanting to really flesh out Lana Clarkson as a full fledged human being and kind of give her, her dignity back. That was something that was important to us in the series, but to be able to talk to the prosecution and the defence, to be able to speak to the Spector side and the Clarkson side - it really does - it's - I think you pointed it out earlier, it's like that - when you talked about bringing on, you know, bringing the victim to life in these types of things, and everybody says they try to do it. I think what we did is that, but I also think people aren't necessarily used to seeing both sides represented and then having to draw their own conclusion. I think so much that's happening in documentary right now, maybe because it is one sided, and they don't have the other side or that the filmmakers came in to specifically drill down on a point that they wanted to make. But for us, it's more interesting and complex when you get to, like, watch a trial, hear from both sides, and then literally make up your own mind. There are people that have come up to us and say, I think Phil's innocent. Okay, cool.
Sheena M. Joyce 31:46
There have also been people that criticised us for contextualising Phil's behaviour, as if that's somehow giving him a pass. I think it was important to us to present him as a multifaceted human being. He was a loving and devoted father to his daughter Nicole. He was not to his other children. It doesn't negate the fact that he murdered Lana Clarkson, yet he was a loving and devoted father to his daughter, Nicole. So, you know, it's funny that we get criticised for things like that, but people are complex and can be more than one thing to many people. And we strove to show that through the series.
Matthew Sherwood 32:32
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a very good point in that, as you say, you wanted to present Lana Clarkson in a fully fledged view, and I completely agree. You've, you know, you've got everyone there. You got the defence attorneys, you've got the prosecutors, you got the investigators. You've got Nicole, his daughter on there, which I will say there's been some poor journalism, but I saw a headline here that basically made it sound like this film was trying to show that Spector was innocent. It's not what you're doing. That's not what you're doing at all! I - you know, spoiler alert, but, you know, but the thing that comes out, and it really, I don't know, maybe it was - didn't really hit me towards the end, but it's like, Spector's story also hasn't been fully told. Either. You know, and that's - okay, you're not - yeah, I can see where - I - some people might try to say you're giving him a bit of a pass, but you're not excusing mental illness as a reason for why this happened. But it is true that he had mental illness, right.
Sheena M. Joyce 33:36
Exactly. Exactly.
Matthew Sherwood 33:38
And as you say, this time, you know, timing issue, it's about the father's suicide. We had RJ Cutler on here one time about Belushi and he was saying, you know, 'to know' - some - he was - some philosopher/writer, he was saying, had said, 'to know the man, look at daddy', and, you know, I think there's a lot of element - there's that element to it. So, I mean, is that ...
Sheena M. Joyce 34:02
It's nice to blame the father instead of the mother!
Matthew Sherwood 34:07
Well...
Sheena M. Joyce 34:08
As a mom, I appreciate it. I appreciate that.
Matthew Sherwood 34:11
Yeah, well, our dads...
Sheena M. Joyce 34:13
Cos we usually blame the mom. Let's blame the dad.
Matthew Sherwood 34:15
Yeah, well, as a dad, you know, because we just kind of stand back and - I didn't, you know, that's me personally, obviously, I'm only denigrating myself but why - I mean, why make this film now? I mean, what got - how did this project get started? Because it's a story that's been covered extensively, in a way. It's not an unknown crime. For those who are living through it, it was - you couldn't get away from it in the US certainly in terms of media coverage, even if it was just to talk about Spector's hair. But, you know, why make this now? How did this come about?
Don Argott 34:58
Well, we were working - we were talking with Lightbox, Jonathan and Simon Chinn, about another project, a music related project that unfortunately never took off. But we hit it off and had really good conversations while we were talking about this other project. And then it was kind of like - I guess it was pre- right before the pandemic.
Sheena M. Joyce 35:19
It was. Yeah. It was before the pandemic, and they brought this up and...
Don Argott 35:23
... they said, Do you have any interest in Phil Spector? A docu-series. We were like, Wow, that's such an interesting idea...
Sheena M. Joyce 35:32
... with James Marsh.
Don Argott 35:33
... with James Marsh, who's coming on to EP with John - Jonathan and Simon. And, you know, for us, we have to ask ourselves the same question: why now?
Sheena M. Joyce 35:43
And why him.
Don Argott 35:44
... and why him? And what can we bring to the table that hasn't already been brought to the table. We're not interested in rehashing, you know, another Phil Spector doc just to make it current and say the same things and really not get anywhere interesting. So, as we start to dig in, and as we started to look at and do research, at that time, Phil was actually still alive. He was in prison. And there was discussions about hey, is this a film where we try to get, you know, Phil - the jailhouse interview, you know, for - you know, where he's at, to reflect; is that what this is? You know, and we kind of kicked that around a little bit, and you can't hinge a project on that level of unknown. You know. (A) would he do it, and (B) would the prison even allow it; so, like, that - seemed like that was something that we should - we could hinge a narrative on. But as we started to look through the research specifically, I knew a lot about his musical career, but not as much about the trial. Obviously, we lived through it, but it was - it's, you know, 2000, 2019, 2003 it's kind of like in a lot of people's recent memory, which is a positive, which also means there's a lot of footage and that kind of stuff. So, from a documentary, archival standpoint, that's a positive. But yeah, it was really looking into the trial and seeing B-movie actress Lana Clarkson, you know, over the hill, past her prime, desperate, you know...
Sheena M. Joyce 37:11
Wrong side of forty.
Don Argott 37:12
... wrong side of forty. You know, as we started to dig in, we're like, this is - nobody knows this story. And I think, you know, there is an interesting story to now look back with the, you know, the events of me-too, and re-examining, you know, behaviour that was not that long ago, through that lens. And so, we felt that, like, Lana Clarkson's part of it was significant and different enough that we could still retell the Phil history story, but in a way that would resonate a little bit more, I think we leaned into...
Sheena M. Joyce 37:48
Not just retell, but maybe uncover some new information, maybe contextualise his behaviour in light of the events in, you know, January, or - I keep saying January - in February because we're in January now, February 3, 2003. But what happens in each of these individuals' lives that they were on these seemingly parallel tracks that then caused them to intersect that night at the House of Blues? How did they get there? How did we, as a society get there? And what has happened since? So, timing wise, it felt like the right time to re-examine the life and legacy of Phil Spector and to reintroduce Lana Clarkson as a real person to audiences.
Don Argott 38:34
And I also think what happens, like making docs, you know, there's a big discovery process, and the discovery process actually doesn't stop until you're done shooting, and then it still can keep on going with a new piece of archival, whether it's audio or video that might reshape or reframe something, but early on, you know, we were able to, you know, acquire these cassette tapes from Mick Brown, who I feel like once there was that Telegraph article, that really became almost the impetus for Phil to kind of be...
Matthew Sherwood 39:12
I mean talk about timing,
Don Argott 39:13
... talk about timing, and this is a guy who's a recluse for, you know, 20 plus years. And, you know, Mick and the editor at The Telegraph decide, like, hey, whatever happened to that crazy music producer, Phil Spector, and then literally six weeks after that interview, the death of Lana Clarkson. So, we felt like we - that was really interesting to be able to kind of come in with that, you know, with that kind of like, present day component almost, of, you know, this, you know, this guy who has the last Phil Spector interview, had the cassette tapes, you know, listening to those tapes. It's extraordinary. Like, he's clearly vulnerable. He's clearly like, being, you know, very candid and very honest. And, you know, and then obviously the events that transpire, and then that bring Mick, the journalist, into it almost as like, Wait, did I cause this by writing this article? And, you know, speaking to Vikram, later, he, you know, again, this is not...
Sheena M. Joyce 40:10
Who's a documentary filmmaker who shot with Phil during the trial.
Don Argott 40:13
Right, which we were able to, like, interview him and use some of his footage. But, you know, Vikram's take on it, which again, cannot be 100%, you know, confirmed or, you know, but his idea that Phil's read this article, and in Mick's mind that he flipped out and like, killed his wife or his assistant at the time, that wasn't the case. But what that article maybe did do was made him go out that night on a bender and made him go out and like, try to like, suppress shit, or like, whatever that was going on, because he didn't go out a lot. So, it's all like, we keep going back to this theme of timing. And the what ifs, and there's so many in this story that were really kind of remarkable, that we - a lot of times you work really hard as a storyteller to connect all these dots, but they were all there...
Sheena M. Joyce 41:03
They were all there, yeah. They were all - and I do want to just add one more thing about how lucky we were to get some amazing archival. Mick Brown's audio tape. So, we hear Phil Spector's voice. We, you know, we had incredible access to both the Spector side and the Clarkson side, the prosecution and the defence, the lead detectives. We were able to get an audio tape that a uniformed officer, the night of the murder, at the scene, put a little recorder on the bannister of the staircase and was able to record Phil as he was talking to the officers who were trying to figure out what was going on, and then eventually arresting him and bringing him in for questioning. So, you hear Phil's voice the night of the murder. We had incredible archival. And so, even though Phil has since passed, he's very present in this film. And you get to see him and hear His voice and hear from him directly.
Matthew Sherwood 42:06
I think, you know, we always talked about never before seen but definitely never before heard.
Sheena M. Joyce 42:11
Certainly.
Matthew Sherwood 42:11
Certainly applies. And I think - is that true? I mean, I just - as you noted. I mean, I was wondering because maybe I missed it but I don't know if he explicitly says it, but does Mick Brown did he really think he caused - his article...
Sheena M. Joyce 42:24
Mick Brown really did think he caused Lana Clarkson's murder. He had interviewed Phil for The Telegraph six weeks prior. Had promised Phil that he would send along an advanced copy of the article. It happened to - to his understanding - arrive at Phil's house the morning of the murder. So, when he went into The Telegraph offices, the next day, you know, February 4, someone said to him, What did you do to Phil Spector and he's like, What are you talking about? And he's like, Well, Iike, he like, killed his assistant or something. I don't know. So, for the longest time, Mick did feel responsible. He found out later that the FedEx was unopened. So, he doesn't now believe that he kind of triggered that; but Vikram, it's his understanding that Phil was faxed a copy of the article. And so, even though he hadn't opened that FedEx and seen the, you know, the physical copy of The Telegraph magazine that he did get to read the story and see the headline and that did prompt him to go on a bender. Phil has these moments in his life, long, long stretches where he's - he had been diagnosed as being bipolar, and he was really good about taking his medication but you can't mix the meds with alcohol, and so, he would have these stretches of lucidity and then he would - something would happen and he would either go off his meds or combine it with alcohol and trouble would ensue. And the night of Lana's death, he went on a super hardcore drinking bender throughout Hollywood that ended the night at the House of Blues where he, you know, met Lana Clarkson. So, I don't know if Phil actually got to read the article, and if that was the inciting incident for that night or not. Phil, as he told Mick, had his demons.
Matthew Sherwood 44:35
Yeah. And then I mean, to maybe on that note, too, as no one person can point the finger back at themselves for the blame. I mean, there's so much, as your documentary points out, there was - and it gets back to that Spector thing about timing again, but - did the Vikram - did that actually air? That interview with him?
Don Argott 45:00
Yeah, that film; it's called The Agony and the Ecstasy of Phil Spector. It was on - I think it was on BBC...
Matthew Sherwood 45:07
It's BBC. But, yeah, wasn't sure; couldn't remember.
Don Argott 45:10
Yeah. And it's a, you know, he was able to speak to Phil, and had a lot more planned to shoot, but I think he only got that - those two interviews. So, he basically had to, you know, work with those two interviews, and the, you know, kind of the courtroom stuff to piece his thing together.
Sheena M. Joyce 45:32
[...] during the trial.
Matthew Sherwood 45:33
Yes, that's right. Exactly. I mean, I was about to say something, I'm gonna stop it there, but there is a - I mean, he - all the people we've mentioned, we've talked about some stories here that are shared in the film, but there's more that we haven't even touched on, that I think...
Sheena M. Joyce 45:53
A lot more.
Matthew Sherwood 45:54
Yeah, there's a lot more; hence why it's four episodes! But, you know, even - you're talking about secondhand and Leonard Cohen, we also - Rob had a firsthand experience, which I thought was quite an interesting story about recording in the studio with Phil Spector.
Sheena M. Joyce 46:08
That's right. And we tried very, very, very hard to get firsthand accounts of both Phil Spector and Lana Clarkson. So, we tried to cut to the truth as closely as we possibly could, which is challenging when the main subject has passed away. Main subjects are no longer with us. But nonetheless, we tried very hard to hear directly from the people who knew those subjects best.
Matthew Sherwood 46:39
And, yes - oh, that exactly, and Vikram has a similar story, which I think definitely worth the - I thought was quite chilling.
Sheena M. Joyce 46:47
Yeah, there's a - there's...
Matthew Sherwood 46:49
... these kinds of stories, yeah.
Sheena M. Joyce 46:50
Even Phil's life about not - about control and power and not wanting to be left alone. And there are women and men throughout Phil's life that have stories about Phil not wanting them to go home.
Matthew Sherwood 47:05
Well, I've got a - speaking of home, I've got to let you two go here pretty quickly, because you've got to, I think, pick up your daughter from school...
Sheena M. Joyce 47:15
Yeah, we have a kid we have to get from school.
Matthew Sherwood 47:17
Yes. So, you're longtime collaborators in life and film. What's next for you two after this?
Don Argott 47:26
We've had a pretty busy couple of years. We have a lot of films that have - and series - that have come out. We, you know, we did this Spector series, we did a four part documentary series for Discovery Plus, called The Bond, which was executive produced by Team Downey: Robert Downey Jr. and Susan Downey. That's on Discovery Plus; that came out earlier this year. I have a Ronnie James Dio documentary that just came out.
Matthew Sherwood 47:50
Oh my god! Sorry, I haven't heard...
Don Argott 47:54
What's crazy is it's...
Matthew Sherwood 47:56
I haven't heard that name in, like...
Don Argott 47:57
.. an incredible amount of work.
Sheena M. Joyce 47:59
Oh, wait, are you a Dio fan?
Matthew Sherwood 48:01
No, I can't say I'm a Dio fan. But I'm from San Antonio, which is like one of the heavy metal capitals of the US and Ronnie James Dio was on the radio all the time.
Don Argott 48:10
You have to see this movie. I'll send you a link.
Sheena M. Joyce 48:12
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 48:13
Okay, please do. Oh my goodness. That's...
Don Argott 48:15
So, yeah. So, we, that...
Sheena M. Joyce 48:16
It's the definitive Dio documentary.
Don Argott 48:18
It came out. We did a small theatrical run, the tail - in the beginning of fall. It's currently on Showtime. And then it'll - it's gonna be on...
Sheena M. Joyce 48:29
Oh, it was released in the UK, too.
Don Argott 48:31
It was?
Sheena M. Joyce 48:32
I thought so. Maybe I'm mistaken.
Don Argott 48:34
I don't think it has been yet, but yeah, we're - so, we're working - so, that is happening. Four part documentary series is coming out in probably the spring on AMC. And yeah, we're just - we got the next couple things that we're trying to get off the ground and get going.
Sheena M. Joyce 48:54
We keep busy.
Don Argott 48:54
We just keep our heads down and keep cranking out shit.
Sheena M. Joyce 48:59
It's good shit!
Matthew Sherwood 49:01
Yeah, it’s good shit - yeah, exactly. We need to qualify that. Well...
Sheena M. Joyce 49:07
Thank you!
Matthew Sherwood 49:08
Well, Sheena and Don, it's been a pleasure to have you on Factual America. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a - I think we've even tried to get you on previously for something - like, the Vonnegut one, and some of the others; so - but I'm glad we finally got you on. So, just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Sheena Joyce and Don Argott, the directors of the new Showtime and Sky Documentaries docu-series, Spector, do check it out. I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 50:19
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specialising in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes, for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is @alamopictures.co.uk