Pelosi in the House – a life of service in troubling times
In the course of her 36 year – and counting – political career, Nancy Pelosi has redefined what American women may achieve in politics.
Two stints as House Speaker and twenty years as leader of the House Democrats have made her one of the most important female politicians of the early twenty-first century.
With her every step of the way has been her daughter, Alexandra, whose new HBO/Sky documentary, Pelosi in the House, is the fruit of their relationship as well as over thirty years of work.
Alexandra joins Matthew Sherwood to discuss a diverse range of topics, including the use of an iPhone as a weapon during the January 6 insurrection, what it was like filming both her mother and in the Capitol, American decline, and when the USA was at its best.
Their conversation ranges from the homely as they find a point of connection in their children’s names, to the solemn, when Matthew asks if Alexandra sees any hope for the USA in the future, to the serious, as Alexandra discusses the toxicity of social media, which nearly lead to the murder of her father.
Alexandra holds nothing back; she says it as she sees it; whether they are talking about the powerful, her employers at HBO, or even herself. She is forthright, frank, and funny. This is a conversation you will not want to miss.
“The person that I put on my film is the person that I have known my entire life. There isn't another version of her that exists.” – Alexandra Pelosi
Time Stamps
02:20 – Matthew introduces this week’s guest: Alexandra Pelosi, director of Pelosi in the House
04:00 – How the iPhone has blended life and work into one
04:48 – The iPhone as a weapon
05:18 – On not seeking permission to film people
06:36 – A career defining encounter with Karl Rove
07:28 – Filming her mother without permission
10:05 – Alexandra’s experience of filming her mother and filming at the Capitol
13:20 – Alexandra on why you should never make a film about someone in public office
15:35 – The impossibility of catching Nancy Pelosi off guard for the film
20:35 – The risks of filming in secret: George Soros’ party
23:05 – Alexandra on how the landscape is so toxic, she would never commission a political doc
24:25 – Difficulties filming the McCain-Palin Presidential bid in 2008, and HBO’s response to the film’s title
28:49 – What’s in a word? Alexandra Pelosi, “acclaimed” film director
30:24 – Recounting a conversation with George W. Bush, and Paul Pelosi, Alexandra’s son’s, response to the events of January 6, 2021
36:21 – Alexandra’s next documentary: talking to the January 6 insurrectionists
41:31 – The Death of America
43:26 – Discussing when the high point of America was
47:08 – The hazards of using the nextdoor app
48:47 – Fear has caused people to shut themselves into their homes
50:49 – Alexandra’s fears for her children, and lack of hope in the American future
53:49 – How New York has become a cliché
54:48 – What would Nancy Pelosi say about the future? Matthew manages to stump Alexandra
55:34 – The benefit of living opposite a church
Resources:
Pelosi in the House
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Alexandra Pelosi:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 122: Pelosi in the House – a life of service in troubling times
Matthew Sherwood 00:00
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. What's it like to make a documentary about your mother? What's it like when your mom happens to be the most powerful woman in America? Find out as we chat with six time Emmy nominated filmmaker, Alexandra Pelosi, the director and producer of Pelosi in the House. The film provides a behind-the-scenes view of what it's like to be the Speaker of the House. But that was just an excuse for a wide ranging discussion about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in 21st century America. We find out why Alexandra would never commission a political doc these days, what's it like to have January 6 insurrectionists show up at your front door just before a podcast interview, and how New York City has become a misanthropic parody of itself. Alexandra Pelosi, welcome to Factual America, how are things with you?
Alexandra Pelosi 01:00
Gosh, I could go into the deep existential answer, or I could just go with fine. Everything's just fine. Thank you for asking.
Matthew Sherwood 01:06
Yeah, this is a British podcast, so just say 'fine', because people ask that and don't actually really want to know, because they're afraid of the possible answer. But, we will go a little bit more into that because I know you've had a very interesting day leading up to this podcast recording, so - but before we go on...
Alexandra Pelosi 01:07
[...] 'Interesting'. You imply that I don't have interesting days.
Matthew Sherwood 01:29
Oh, my goodness. Now, this film is making more and more sense!
Alexandra Pelosi 01:32
The problem with what I do for a living is that real life and documentary, and life and documentaries, all sort of blended into - I mean, one of the things that the iPhone did was it just erased the line between work and life. Because every - you have a camera, like a really high quality camera, in your hand, at every waking moment, then every waking moment, could be a documentary, or could be a part of a documentary. And so, you don't ever invite me to your home if you don't want to see it on TV. Does that make sense?
Matthew Sherwood 02:14
Well, I - certainly make sense to me. I mean, I myself, I'm trying to get a really good camera because I'm tired of using a phone as a camera because I don't know the...
Alexandra Pelosi 02:23
No, [...] the best phone there is. And the mistake of trying to get a really good camera, I have found, is that it's a crutch. Your iPhone - on January 6, all I had was an iPhone, and that was the best weapon I could have had. Because if I had a real camera, people would have shut down and said, Do you have permission to film? Are you supposed to be filming? This is an army base. We weren't authorized. An iPhone - everybody has a phone in their hands, except Chuck Schumer who uses a flip phone, but...
Matthew Sherwood 02:51
I've heard that!
Alexandra Pelosi 02:53
Yeah, no, he had a flip phone the whole day. Yes, that's what he has. But so, a phone, people just think you're sitting there watching YouTube videos. They don't know what you're doing. And so, you can be capturing anything, at any moment. And that's so much more real than a camera. Because when you have a camera, an experiment watched is an experiment changed. I have teenagers [...], so I talk about this [...], you know, an experiment watched is an experiment changed. So, if you have a camera, people behave a certain way, because they know they're being filmed. And you never really want to film anything that someone gives you permission to film. So, anytime I write to someone asking for permission to film something, or to get an interview, it always ends up being cutting floor material, because you never want an interview that someone grants. Why would you want to talk to someone who gives you permission? It doesn't make sense. You're not saying - if you're agreeing to be interviewed, then you're not saying anything that you don't approve being out into the world, and therefore, it's not going to be very interesting.
Matthew Sherwood 03:58
So, how do you - so, in any doc, at some point, if there's a particular subject in question, they've got to at least agree to be talking to you, and being filmed.
Alexandra Pelosi 04:08
No, they don't, actually.
Matthew Sherwood 04:09
Well...
Alexandra Pelosi 04:10
This is what - this is my whole motto. The year - I was a network news producer for a decade at NBC News. I was assigned to cover the George Bush campaign. And on the bus - this was before the iPhone was invented - and I had a handheld camera. And I was filming just off-moments. And, you know, we had those big network crews with the audio, with the boom mic guys, that did the real filming. And then there was just me, I was just like the kid on the bus. And it was after-hours, and I pulled my little handycam out that goes on vacation because I spent a year-and-a-half on the George W. Bush Presidential Campaign. So, now and then I saw interesting things that I thought should have been captured just like, you know; so, I filmed it. And one time Karl Rove saw me filming, and he walked over to me and he said, Oh, I get it. It's better to beg for forgiveness then ask for permission...
Matthew Sherwood 05:02
Well...
Alexandra Pelosi 05:02
Like, I get [it], that's your motto. And I'm like, Yeah, you get it. And from that moment on, that was where my life as a documentary filmmaker was born. Because, I realized my full approach to everything was, I'm only going to film things that I don't have permission to film. Fast forward twenty years later, I'm in Washington DC a few weeks ago with George Bush, George W. Bush, the star of my first film - I never gave him permission to film him or never signed a release - and I was explaining to him, I have good news. I made a new film, don't you want to know who it's about? And I turned to my mother, and I said, it's about you. And she looks at me sort of nervous, uncomfortably laughing, and I'm saying, Yeah, actually, I made a movie about you. Well, she never gave me permission. She never signed a release. She never let me put a microphone on her. She never really - I mean, I assume everything. I've been filming everything my entire life. I'm 52 years old. And I've had - I mean, from the - forget the iPhone, that was, you know, 2006, I think, 2007 was the first iPhone. Of course, I've been filming that long. But I've been filming since I was a teenager with versions of whatever camera I had at the time. So, I've been filming everything my whole life. So, of course, my mother was used to me filming everything all the time. So, it's just a question of, What do you mean, you're making a movie? Oh, actually, I've been editing the movie, and I'm going to put it on HBO. And that's what happened.
Matthew Sherwood 05:15
So, well, you've answered some of the questions I had. I mean, was - I was thinking because, you know, the way the film starts, you know, was your mom humoring you all these years? Or was it, she's just used to you always running around with a camera around the house, and when you're visiting on Capitol Hill, and so, you know, she really didn't have any idea that this was going to someday end up in a doc.
Alexandra Pelosi 06:47
She did never - she never ever thought it would end up in a doc because she thought there were rules, and that you have to ask for permission, and you can't just [...] on HBO, and get away with it. So, she didn't think it was legal. But besides that, and maybe it wasn't, [but] besides that, I think the best compliment I got about the film came from James Brooks, you know, the Hollywood icon, legend; like, my favorite person in the whole world. He called me and he said, I just realized, your mother, she's a saint, because she put up with you for all these years. And that was his takeaway from the film. God, how awful it would be to have a documentary filmmaker daughter, who's just walking behind you, yelling at you all the time, asking you questions, and she's constantly swatting me away like a fly.
Matthew Sherwood 07:39
She is.
Alexandra Pelosi 07:40
[..] because I'm her daughter. So, it's sort of like, the only way I ever could have made this film was just like, following her around and asking her questions. What are you doing now? How, you know, how many votes do you need to win this? Why are you doing this? You know, that was basically as close as I was ever going to get to my own mother, and to making a documentary about a political person. Because if you walk into the Capitol, and you try to film anybody, first of all, there's signs everywhere that say, you're not allowed to film anything in any office. And there're all these rules with the Capitol Police and all that. Forget about that. Besides that, you - there was a - but a staff of, like, press people, people who were put out to control people's images. There's a whole, like, entourage of people that would say, No, no, no, if you ever tried to get near anyone. Even just any regular member of Congress, they have offices full of people to say no to you to keep you away, but they can't really keep your daughter away. You know, what are you supposed to do? The annoying daughter's over there asking, you know, lots of questions, but what are they going to do? Step in? They can't, right. So, it doesn't matter if you hate Nancy Pelosi, because half the country hates Nancy Pelosi, and I would, too, if I watched Fox News because Fox News programmed half the country to hate Nancy Pelosi. This movie is not about Nancy Pelosi, what it's about is what is the Speaker of the House? What does the Speaker of the House do? Nancy Pelosi told me she had never been into the Speaker's office until she became Speaker herself. And I thought that was intriguing. Because I walked into the Speaker's office with her the first time she ever walked in. And she'd been in Congress a long time before she became Speaker, right. So, I thought that was really interesting. And I thought, well, I spent 1000s of hours - you know, she was Speaker once, she was Speaker twice. It's like, you know [...]. She's been Speaker - she had been Speaker for so long that I thought, I've been in this office for so long, and I have been filming so much of it, I thought that was my duty, my community service was sharing it with people. Look what happens in the Speaker's office. Look, she's counting your votes. This is how you pass a bill. This is how a bill becomes a law. It's all civics lesson, you know? And she's not Speaker anymore. So, it doesn't matter what you think of her because, you know, she's an old lady, and she doesn't care what you think of her. But she did teach me some things. There's some lessons about how to survive in the, you know, the snake pit that is Washington political-industrial complex that I think you learn from watching this movie, and I think that has some value. I have discovered what I didn't even anticipate because I'm so naive, when I put the movie out - you know, I've been working at HBO for 20 years, ever since I made that [George Bush] movie, I've made 14 films for HBO. So, I've been doing this forever. What I didn't realize had happened since we started edit - I have an editor, you know, a genius old man who's about to retire, he tried to retire twice on this project; I said, No, you're gonna stay and finish. You're gonna stay and finish because the film kept going. What I did not anticipate is the reason why you should never make a film about a person in public office. Ask me. Why should - why do you recommend that to all documentary filmmakers? Don't ever make a film about someone in public office?
Matthew Sherwood 10:54
I'm going - you've asked that question, Why should - and I will ask it, and I'll tell you especially why I'm going to ask it, but later, but why should you never make a film about someone who's in public office, Alexandra?
Alexandra Pelosi 11:07
Because, half the country automatically is programmed to hate that person - whoever it is; Democrat, Republican, libertarian, tree hugger, whatever...
Matthew Sherwood 11:17
Yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 11:17
And what they will do is the haters that sit home in their underwear, on the internet, will go on to the internet before your film is released, and shit all over your film, so, that it has terrible reviews, even though the film's never been released and no one's seen it. So, you'll go online and say, Wow, Rotten Tomatoes. I've got a 38% rating, but the film hasn't even come out yet. How could they say that? They haven't even seen it. Meaning, we're talking about the audience review. So, the audience never could have seen any of it. We haven't been at a public screening. Nancy Pelosi hasn't even seen it. How could America have voted to give this a 38%? And it's like, because only 38% of America likes her. Now. There's a legitimate reason to not like this film. I could give you - I could write the worst review of this film ever. Because films are like children, they don't always grow up to be exactly what you want them to be, right.
Matthew Sherwood 12:09
Yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 12:09
I can give a really bad review of my own films. I have - I could write the best worst reviews of all my films. But you can come up with 1,000 reasons to not like this film. But that's not what's in the reviews you find on the internet. On the internet, you find: I hate Nancy Pelosi, I give it a one. Yeah, Nancy Pelosi sucks, I'll give it a one. And so, so you're, like, Well, wait, hold on. If you watch the film, you could give a really sophisticated reason for why you hate Nancy Pelosi. Like, you could go deeper. You could have much more content to use as ammunition in your review, which I could give it a one review, because I could give you legitimate things that didn't work because she wouldn't answer my questions. Or she - I couldn't crack her. But you didn't even watch the film, because you just have this hate in your soul, and hate comes out. People come out, out of hate; people don't come out, out of love. You don't find a lot of love on the internet, you find just a lot of toxic hate. That's what I have found.
Matthew Sherwood 13:10
Well, and the reason I find this very, very - it's interesting, regardless - but what I find especially interesting is I just will say that I've had some experience with some people who are trying to do something similar on the other end of the Capitol, and have been in the Capitol with a crew that has tried to do some similar things, nothing like twenty years’ worth, but something in the last couple of years. And one thing - so, a couple things, did - and you said it was one of the big criticisms - did you ever get her to crack or let her guard down? And how is it - I mean, because that's my experience, and the experience I've seen with other politicians, the best ones, at least, is she ever, at least with you on camera, is she ever not on message? And is it possible to get someone off message who's a great politician?
Alexandra Pelosi 14:03
But that's what people need to kind of try to understand. These people. It's in their DNA.
Matthew Sherwood 14:12
That's what I was - yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 14:13
You've given up your whole life to public service; like, Nancy Pelosi was like, Public service is a noble calling. You know, her father was in Congress, she gave [...] Congress. Whether you hate her politics or not, that's not what this is about. This is about, I have decided, I'm a warrior, and I'm going into battle, okay. If you're a warrior going into battle, this is what you believe. So, when people say, Well, did she crack? You couldn't get her to get off message. No, because that is her [message]. She rolls over in her sleep. I have slept in beds with her many nights. She rolls over at night, and counts about that bill. That's in her DNA. It's who she is. So, I've spent 52 years on this earth with Nancy Pelosi. It's not - she's not another person at home. It's almost as if people want her to come home, take her heels off, and just start trash-talking Kevin McCarthy. It doesn't happen. That doesn't happen.
Matthew Sherwood 15:07
Yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 15:07
So, there's no difference - the person that I put on my film is the person that I have known my entire life. There isn't another version of her that exists somewhere. And what I think a lot of people when they criticize movies, any movie, is, Well, you didn't talk about global warming. I wasn't making a movie about global warming. I was making a movie about counting votes for Obamacare. Like, people have these - the audience doesn't know how to watch a film and process like, this is what I'm serving you for dinner. This is an Italian pizza. It's not Mexican, it's not Chinese, it's Italian, and we're having Italian food for dinner tonight. And you're going to meet this person. This is an introduction to this woman, my mother, and I'd like you to meet her. And you get, you only have to spend less than two hours with her. I have to spend my whole life with her. I'm just giving you two hours. And there's a lot of crap streaming on HBO right now. Or Sky, wherever you watch this, and I'm saying, I'm not saying that this is, like, has any more value than any of that. I'm just saying, here's an interesting peek behind closed doors, inside in the room where it happens. This is what goes on back there. You want to peek? If not change the channel. I don't really care. I'm just totally fascinated by how people can't just take something they're given, eat it, and enjoy it, and digest it for what it is without saying, Yeah, but you didn't get her to say I hate Kevin McCarthy. Like, because she never - she never says that. That's not who she is. In fact, during the whole week that they were going through that whole Speaker's race. All she said is, This is so sad for the country. I'm so sad for the country, the country shouldn't be seeing this. She didn't say a word about him. Because that's not who she is. It's like trying to change people saying, Did you get her to crack? Is like saying, did you change your boyfriend who was cheating on you? No, that's who he is. You can't change people. You can't change people. And you can't make Nancy Pelosi be someone she's not. And I'm sorry, if she's not the person you wish she were that came home, and, like, you know, had wild dance parties and [talked] trash about every Republican in the Congress. She just doesn't do that; I'm sorry.
Matthew Sherwood 17:31
But I understand - I mean, what your film does, and I think there are very few films that I'm aware of who've done this, done exactly what you said you were venturing out to do, which is pull the curtain back, show what it's like behind the scenes of power and policymaking and vote counting and how things get done on the hill. And we don't - I mean, I think back to maybe even, like, all the way back to, like, Robert Drew, Pennebaker type, Kennedy type films, you know, but you don't see many things. We have political docs, but we very seldom really, actually see these conversations between politicians, and what's going on.
Alexandra Pelosi 18:10
Thank you. This is, like, making my day, my week, my month. Because I think in the kind of landscape we live in now, like the media intelligencia, no one has said that, and I'm sort of stunned, because I'm like, Do you have any idea how many risks I took? Legally, personally, professionally, to put stuff out that, really, I had no right to be putting in public. You know, stuff that was filmed, you know, that other people in the room didn't know I was filming. I made a film called Meet the Donors. And it was - I crossed America, and I interviewed the list of the biggest donors, both party, half Republicans, half Democrats. Tell me - these are all billionaires - Tell me, why do you give so much money to politics? I'm curious. What's in it for you, right. And I went to a George Soros party, and I filmed and - I didn't pay to go, I was an invited guest. I just went as, you know, my mom's plus one. But anyway, I filmed, and then I put it in my movie. And now I'm persona non grata in the Soros household because they weren't very happy that I did that, because they thought that was some sort of violation, which probably was, but again, back to my motto of "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission", I thought, look, people have a right to see this is our President - Barack Obama's there - this is, you know, all these, you know, billionaires, I think [...] what's happening in the room. That film came out, and it got, like, terrible reviews. And I was surprised because I was, like, well, I took a lot of risks, here. I, you know, the Washington Post said it was like obvious; like, Alexandra Pelosi is Captain Obvious. Talking about money in politics. Like, really, because you've never been invited to George Soros' house, and you haven't been kicked out of George Soros' house, and you're not persona non grata at George Soros' house because you filmed and put it on TV. So, until you wear that scarlet, you know, I got kicked out of George Soros' house on your - you don't really have the kind of, like, street cred to be saying how obvious my film is, you know what I'm saying?
Matthew Sherwood 20:16
I'm with you on this one. And you've got me wondering, can you - I mean, you're at HBO. So, you have some pull there, I would have thought, can political docs get made any more? Can they get - can they get commissioned? Because as you say, we're in a world where now you're already starting off with having probably pissed off half your prospective audience.
Alexandra Pelosi 20:39
If I were running the world, if I were running the media universe, I would never commission a political doc. I would say, Don't waste your time. Because I think that the landscape is so toxic right now, the political discourse is so broken, that all you're going to get is hate for trying. There's no sort of, like, That was an interesting attempt to try and show me something I hadn't seen before. You're not going to - you're not going to get people that watch Fox News to come over to HBO to watch movies say, I never thought of it like that. No one's going to surprise you. People are going to watch the movies that they want. And I think that it's for, at this moment in time, maybe it will all change, but for this moment in time - I watched a political doc last night, really depressed me. It's called This Place Rules, and it's a young YouTuber guy, 25 year old guy, who goes on the road, and it's on HBO, and he goes across the road - across America - and he talks to crazy people. That's it. He just talks to crazy people. That's the whole premise is, like, he goes to rallies. I've been at all those rallies, because I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm like the oldest person alive; like, kid with a camera routine. I've been out there. And I was at a lot of the same rallies that he was at, a lot of the same event - Black Lives Matter protests, that kind of stuff.
Matthew Sherwood 21:10
Yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 21:21
And I made a film in 2000 - when Barack Obama was running for president against John McCain. The idea was, we know Barack Obama's going to win. So, let's go to all the McCain rallies and talk to the people who don't like Barack Obama and find out why they're still showing - they loved Sarah Palin. So, let's go to the Sarah Palin-John McCain rallies.
Matthew Sherwood 22:21
Right, right.
Alexandra Pelosi 22:23
We started filming knowing that Barack Obama's gonna be President. It seemed so obvious. It was like, you know, after the - anyway; so, I went to these rallies, and people would say, like, Obama is the Antichrist. Obama. They'd say terrible thing. And I was filming it, and I was - I mean, everybody was saying this. And it was really, like, Wow, America, this is real America, not like your liberal bubble Manhattan where I live. This was real America. And I was stunned people said these things. I went back and I edited a very grown up and mature version of it. And I gave everybody the best edit possible. So, they didn't look [...] just let them speak their opinions, but I didn't go into the Obama is Antichrist, and he's Satan, and all that. But at one rally, I put one guy who said, you know, I don't trust Obama, I think he's Satan or something like that. And Richard Plepler, who was the president of HBO at the time said, You can't put that on HBO. You just can't. We're not in the business of - so he changed the title. I thought I had such a clever title. It was Right America, Feeling Wronged. And he made us change the title to add a subtitle that said, 'Some Voices from the Campaign Trail'. He insisted 'Some Voices from the Campaign Trail', meaning, well, all these people don't like Obama. This is just some people because the world loves Obama. I mean, we know that. This is just some people. We have to just, like, credit all the other half of America by saying Some Voices, okay. So, I've been making these kind of films, like, Outside the Bubble was another one, where I go out to [...] try to give the benefit of the doubt to the person on the other side. And I make friends with them, and I go to their house and I sleep in their bed, and I talk to their grandchildren, and I make friends with them, and I go to their barbecues. That's been my whole shtick. I've been doing this for a long time. So, the film that I was all taking this back to, this last film I watched, which is the most recent political documentary ever aired on HBO, I watched this film and it was all people saying, you know, Biden is a pedophile. And I was, like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is QAnon crazy.
Matthew Sherwood 24:29
Right.
Alexandra Pelosi 24:30
And there's a moment where you have to say, now I'm being the grown up, because, you know, I'm saying, do we need to put that on TV? Is that really something that we have to be - really? And so, that 1-1-1 crazy guy in my movie, a long time ago, has now become - everyone just focuses on that guy in the whole movie, right, and it ends up on the air. And I think that that is what sells. I think that movie has a great score on Rotten Tomatoes, like, a perfect score on Rotten Tomatoes, because people love watching crazy. And people love watching sick people get a microphone and say the craziest thing they can think of. And I think that's why our political environment is so toxic and broken. Because we keep handing the microphone - thank you, Donald Trump. This is all in the - what Donald Trump did to our political conversation, is he turned it into every crazy person gets to say the craziest pizzagate conspiracy theory out of their mind, and we hand them the microphone, and we let them do that. And I think that it's, you know, that's what 20 year olds do. And God bless them for trying, but I just - I think if I were the executive, I would say, You know, maybe we need to be a little more grown up in our approach to having a political - a grown up political dialogue.
Matthew Sherwood 25:45
Okay. Well, speaking of being grown up, we've actually got to give our sponsors a little word. So, we'll be right back with Alexandra Pelosi, the producer and director of Pelosi in the House, Still on HBO, and on Sky here in the UK.
Factual America Midroll 26:03
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures, to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 26:23
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with acclaimed filmmaker, Alexandra Pelosi, producer and director of Pelosi in the House, which is...
Alexandra Pelosi 26:34
"Acclaimed". Where'd you come up with that word?
Matthew Sherwood 26:35
Do you not like that word? Do you want "Emmy nominated"? Do you want...?
Alexandra Pelosi 26:40
I'm flattered! I think it's really - I want to put it on my tombstone.
Matthew Sherwood 26:43
"Acclaimed"?
Alexandra Pelosi 26:44
Who came up with it? I mean, I don't know...
Matthew Sherwood 26:47
I did. I did. But [I'm] happy for you to use it. I don't have ownership or trademark or anything on there, so... So, you're free - feel free to use that.
Alexandra Pelosi 26:57
[...] compliment I've gotten this week, so I'm gonna take it.
Matthew Sherwood 27:00
Well, good. I'm doing all right, so far. The - I mean, we're talking about - you're talking about this film you just watched, and sort of the QAnon craziness. I mean, I think the thing about your - the film that we are sort of talking about - Pelosi in the House - is, I mean, you do document that this craziness isn't just something that's happened - I mean, I'm not - it's gone on - it's on steroids now, right. And as you're talking about what, sort of Trump's influence, but there's, you know, there was this craziness going on, it's been going on for a while, as the film shows with your mother and the, you know, during the Iraq War, and Obamacare, and people, you know, your nephews have grown up with people demonstrating outside your, their grandmother's house, and stuff.
Alexandra Pelosi 27:13
Those are my kids.
Matthew Sherwood 27:26
Oh, are those [your] kids - ? Is Paul, your - which one's your kid?
Alexandra Pelosi 27:58
Paul and Thomas are my children, and they are - when Paul was born...
Matthew Sherwood 28:04
Yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 28:05
George Bush came to visit him, that was like this, you know, because I made the George Bush movie, and my George Bush [film] came out. And so, he is welcomed to the world. The first phone call I got in the hospital was George Bush calling and saying call him George. But I didn't call him George, I called him Paul after my dad. And then, Paul is with me, as he's been there every [...] all of Obamacare, obviously, through his whole life. That's the only life he's ever known, is just being, you know, two steps behind Nancy Pelosi. So, he gets to hear everything that people say behind Nancy Pelosi's back, which is an interesting way of seeing how people treat you to your face, and then hearing what everyone says behind your back. It's a really [...] way as a teenager to grow up because I had that experience, but I was older. He got it as that's how he views...
Matthew Sherwood 28:45
Right. Right.
Alexandra Pelosi 28:46
... the world. Contrast is very intriguing to him. But anyway, he was with me on January 6, and he was in the bunker. And he - first of all that morning, he kept saying, and it's in the movie, he kept saying, What if this were on the Capitol? He called it, and everyone looked at him like, Oh, you crazy kid. And if anyone had listened to him - all day, he kept saying It's a pretty big crowd. What if they just break in? What if they just storm into the Capitol? And this pretty [...] looked like, Ah, so cute. So, when we were being escorted out of the building, he was like, I knew this was gonna happen. I knew this. I mean; so, it's interesting for someone to grow up in that. The reason I make the point about the George Bush birth and...
Matthew Sherwood 29:31
Right.
Alexandra Pelosi 29:31
... he [being] in the Capitol, in the bunker with Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy, is that for this, my son, to have this, Why does everybody want to kill Mimi - we call her Mimi - want to kill Mimi? He's asking me, and I'm like, Well, I don't really have a good answer for that right now. I mean, I guess you should go turn on Fox News and Tucker Carlson can explain it to you. But for now, I'm trying to figure out why does everybody want to kill Mimi. And it's interesting because in the George Bush era there were die-ins in front of Nancy Pelosi's house every day, that Paul watched with his own two eyes, because people didn't like the Iraq War. So, they went and protested at my parents' house, and they lived in San Francisco, in front of my parents' house. And so, we'd come and go, and there'd be protesters doing die-ins in front of the house all the time. But it never, we never thought they were going to break in, and, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 30:23
Right.
Alexandra Pelosi 30:24
... and kill [anybody]. So, it was interesting for a child who had been raised on protest, and die-ins to then get to the point at 16 being like, So why does everyone want to kill her? You know, like, in his mind, he never thought of, like, those nice liberal tree hugger, anti-war protesters as being a threat to his livelihood, to people that we were hiding from [in] the bunker, to then, as you know, there we were in the ICU when my father was attacked. [...] circle. It was like, Oh, and here we come full circle. You know, like, it's like the circle of life. You know, that's where we are, we've come through in the circle of life, there are consequences for crazy shit that people say on Fox News. It trickles down to the unwell. And the unwell and - big distinction - I'm not saying mentally ill, because mentally ill is right off; like, Oh, he's mentally ill, so, yeah, he shouldn't go to jail or pay a price for [what he did]. No, it trickles down to people who are just not very educated, and not very, you know, that don't have much to live for. So, they break into someone's house and try and kill the guy, and it's important - that's when you say, We're going back to the answer to the question, in case you're wondering what this rant was about, would you commission a political doc today? And I would say no, because I think if political dialogue has dissolved to the level that, you know, I'm sitting in the Mark Zuckerberg San Francisco General ICU hospital, right, I'm [...] there, and I'm thinking, Isn't this ironic? The definition of irony is that we're sitting in [the] Mark Zuckerberg ICU wing of the hospital, because, really, he's the one that put us here in the first place. Because without Facebook, without social media, this toxic crap wouldn't spread. And we never would have ended up here. That's the legacy of social media and, you know, fake news. And, you know, conspiracy theories and crazy, crazy talk. It leads somewhere. It almost killed my father. [My] father came within centimeters of death. The doctor said he was like, luckiest man alive. I mean, I don't know, you're lucky when you almost - whatever. But he almost got killed in his own home in the middle of the night, because somebody doesn't like the politics of his wife. Now, if that person really was convicted - if any of these peoples, going all the way back to the tree huggers, really meant it, they'd go to Washington DC, because Nancy Pelosi is in Washington, DC. So, if you're [looking] to protest or do harm, go to Washington DC. But I'll tell you why people don't do that, because it's cold there, and nobody wants to sleep and have a die-in in front of Nancy Pelosi's house in Washington DC because it's below zero, because it's winter, and it's not comfortable. It's much more fun to have a party in front of her San Francisco house where, you know, groups have had parties, protest parties, live-ins, mattresses, everything, for decades in front of my parents' home in San Francisco, because it's fun. It's a good party. You may get laid, you don't know [...] you don't know. [It's] where the fun is. You never see those people in Washington. That's the funny part. It's like, if they really had the conviction in their soul, they'd show up in Washington, but they don't, because it's not a good party there. Unless you're a Trump and it's January 6, and then it's the greatest party on earth.
Matthew Sherwood 33:56
Well, and so, given what you said: wouldn't commission a political doc, and about all this craziness - you made us aware that one reason we were slightly delayed in recording this podcast is that you're actually going ahead, and not following your own advice, I gather, or maybe it isn't a political doc, per se, but you are - is it okay to talk about this that you're working with - or not working with, but trying to understand the insurrectionists?
Alexandra Pelosi 34:06
I am - okay, first of all, it's too late for me. I'm an old lady. You know, this is like, you're talking to a grandma here. Like, compared to...
Matthew Sherwood 34:38
You're younger than me! But anyway.
Alexandra Pelosi 34:40
Well, I mean, like, the whole, you know, the new...
Matthew Sherwood 34:42
But I know where you're coming from.
Alexandra Pelosi 34:43
A 25 year old YouTuber that's living in an RV and travelling the country and talking to Antifa. That's the hot new thing.
Matthew Sherwood 34:49
Right.
Alexandra Pelosi 34:50
So, that's [the] direction that political docs are going in, and I'm saying, Well, I mean, now I'm sounding like the old lady sitting at home with her, you know, I've got an iPhone and, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 34:59
Yeah.
Alexandra Pelosi 34:59
So, I have been working on a film in which I've been having conversations with insurrectionists. But not from a place of judgement or, you know, disdain, or - it's more trying to break through this moment. Where did you get these ideas? Who told you this? Why? Just the why of it all. And when I show up - you know, I've written to basically all eight hundred of them, and I know in the first five minutes - you know, half of them won't talk to me, let's take the first half...
Matthew Sherwood 35:35
Right.
Alexandra Pelosi 35:36
They'll write me some, you know, toxic, spew back, and I'm fine, whatever. Then the ones that will engage, then there's like, a good percent that are just like, Yeah, Joe Biden eats babies or whatever, then I'm like, Okay, I'm not talking to you. Because, yeah, no. Okay. So, then I go, I just keep having conversations with people till I find the normal ones. Because there had to be like, good, normal people there that day, that were not, you know, QAnon crazy, or, you know, whatever. And so, that's what this is all about. It's like, trying to get an actual answer. I'm trying to actually come up with an answer, like, about the why of that day. And I've been doing it for two years, and I have not come up with an answer, except that America has a tear - it's an indictment against the educational - you know, our education in America is, you know, rock bottom, we have no civics, we have the combination of getting no education - unless you're in, like, super-fancy private schools, like my kids, then they have a great education, and they're smarter than I am. But I'm saying, like, the public schools have failed us. And then we have this toxic social media going, where people just get, you know, insane amounts of - they call them conspiracy theories, but if you say that you're kind of just writing it off, like, Oh, you know, who shot JFK, that's a conspiracy theory. This is called just flat out fabrications packaged as truth. And then, you know, worked through as opinion, you know, and I think MSNBC is just as guilty as Fox News. I mean, I'm not throwing the stone at one side or the other. There is a certain amount of money to be made on conflict in cable news, and on social media. And some people are getting very rich; so rich, that they can dedicate a whole wing of - they can build a whole hospital in San Francisco where my father can go after he gets attacked, or online conspiracy theories from some crazy person, you know, but not crazy, make sure we don't use the word crazy, because that asshole's not getting off by just saying he was crazy because he knew exactly what he was doing. Because he walked into the house and said, I'm here to break Nancy's kneecaps, so that she has to go back to Congress and roll into the Congress in a wheelchair because Trump Trump Trump; he used the name Trump, like, that's not crazy, honey, you knew exactly what you're saying, because it was all coherent, and there's a full transcript, and it was all on the body cam. And we've gotten - we know exactly what you said, and there's nothing crazy. It's all exactly what you heard on Fox News. And I can prove it. If you want me to take transcripts, I will. I've done the deep dive. I have a lot of - I'm a documentary filmmaker, I have a lot of free time. I've taken the confession, I've taken the transcripts, and I can highlight for you, you know, let's compare and - cut and paste, compare and contrast. It all comes down to Donald Trump.
Matthew Sherwood 38:23
And, I mean, that's the thing that - because I haven't done the deep dive, but I've finally started, you know, looking into some of these things, and it's - I guess what I, you know, like you say, conspiracy theories, people had their, like you said, let's not call it that, and it's - people had their views or whatever. But this is - these are, like you say, it's downright just lies and misinformation. But have you gotten to anywhere where, why, what's the incentive for these people to - I mean, besides Trump - I mean, you know, like, even the people who they think started, or were, you know, fueling QAnon, and all this - what is - what's in it for them, do you think?
Alexandra Pelosi 39:06
I'm not an expert, and I don't want to pretend to be an expert. I don't want to tell you that I know anything, because I really don't know anything. But what I do know is, America's dying. It's like, we are just, we were once a great and mighty nation, and, you know, this was the greatest country on Earth and all that. But as I told my mother in the ICU, when my father was sitting there, Nancy Pelosi never gave a speech in which she didn't say this is the greatest country on Earth, and I said, If you ever say that in a speech ever again, I'm gonna punch you in the face. That was a callback to my movie when she said she was going to punch Trump in the face, for those of you that watch the movie. So, the point being that we were once a mighty and great, you know, heroic nation, almighty USA, proud to be an American where we say, No, I'm free, sing along with me, right. And we're not anymore. And I think that it's sad when we used to be something we see it slipping away. And we see that; you know, it's that whole white replacement thing and, you know, there's a lot of - we're mourning the loss of this, you know, something we used to have that we don't have anymore. And so, instead of just, like, manning up, and going back to school and learning a new trade, and trying to adapt or die, we are, you know, putting on our MAGA hat and storming the Capitol and just showing our ignorance.
Matthew Sherwood 40:29
And, you think it's - what we're watching and, I mean, maybe like a slow train wreck or something, it's like a failed - maybe it's a bit cliched, but it's a failing empire. It's - whatever it is, but - I mean, where do you - where was the high point for you? This [is] something I did wonder. When was the high point for US - America? I mean, when did this, you know, when did this...
Alexandra Pelosi 41:01
It's a very personal for you - you know, I have a Dutch husband. He came to America, and he had all of those naive, childish American dream, kind of, worldview. He gave up his citizenship, I made him during the Patriot Act. Patriot Act, remember, George W. Bush was like, If the Euros at any minute, they don't like the Iraq War, the Netherlands were on the right side, but you don't know that - you know, government can change. I'm afraid of the government, who knows what they can change the laws tomorrow, and just sort of like, kick people out. And we had kids. So, I was like, You know what you should just go and sign up. So, he became an American citizen. And we travelled the country and made a film called Citizen USA. And it was talking to people about why did you choose America, and they'd say things like, indoor plumbing, or free refills. Or, you know, there are a lot of good answers to why people chose America compared to what; it's all a question of like, compared to what. Compared to some shithole country you just left? Sure. But here's the problem. Europe is great. So, you know, it's compared to what country are we talking about? So, I would say, you know, the glory days, for me, were watching, like seeing America through the eyes of all these new immigrants when I made that film. So, that was probably the greatest time I had. For everyone it's personal. Their moment that they thought. And then, certainly, I don't know anybody's - you know, you could go back to Ronald Reagan, and - I don't care shining, you know, city on a hill. But everyone can agree that Covid was - I mean, I'll be political and say, I blame it on Donald Trump, but that's too easy. I would definitely say that Covid just brought [the] rug out from under us. Because it was, all of a sudden, we thought we knew our neighbors and we thought we had relationships and community, and it all fell apart, because, you know, the people that were coming to my house, were saying things that, you know, you only see on QAnon channels or something. I'd say, Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah. I think people lost their minds during Covid. And I don't blame them, really, because it was a crazy time. And we're still kind of in it. It's still this sort of, like, we don't know if we're like going back to work, or we're at work, or we're not; like, the offices are closed, but people - nobody's there when I go to the office; people are still saying you have to work from home because of - like, why? Covid's gone. But I guess it's not because there's a new strand or something. I don't think we've ever - see, we haven't - I don't know how it is right now in the UK, but we haven't reset post-Covid, as a country; we don't know - like, everyone says they can't go to work. Like, the people I work with, they all say, Oh, I can't go to work, because you know, everyone wants to work from home, because everyone likes being in their underwear all day. But then there're really long lines in my coffee shop during the day, and I'm like, Wait, hold on, we can't go to the office, but we can all go hang out [together] at the news bar [...] to get lunch; we can all go out to lunch; everyone's going out to lunch, and like, nobody's working anymore. Nobody wants to work, and I get it. I'd rather go to Sweetgreens and, you know, have actual cafeteria lunch. But the rules are still not in place about how we're supposed to behave post Covid, so, I don't know. I don't know when it was the best but I can tell you when it's the worst, and now - I don't know if you've been to New York lately, but it's a little bit like a freak show with, like, mentally ill people on the streets, everybody's gotten really anxious, and really like paranoid, and they're, like, we're - I'm on nextdoor, which is an app; talk about toxic.
Matthew Sherwood 44:40
We have nextdoor over here.
Alexandra Pelosi 44:43
Okay. So, I have the app, and I read these things, like, "Today, I got attacked on the street, and I had to have surgery. Like, things happen on my street". When you read what's going on in your neighborhood you get - like, you'll never leave the house again. I have neighbors that won't leave the house. They refuse to leave the house for any reason. And they ask me to go move their cars for them on street sweeping day. That's how weird it's gotten. People have gotten really weird. And I have - I do have a friend that's, like, a psychiatrist, and she was telling me yesterday, she was saying, 31 years I've been in practice, and I've never had this kind of, people are just afraid of each other. They're just afraid to go out, they're afraid of - there's like this whole Instacart culture that has evolved because people don't want to go out the front door. They're afraid to ride the subway, they're afraid to walk down the street, they're afraid they're going to be pushed on a subway track. And there's just a certain, right now, a certain just inbred paranoia, slash, you know, agoraphobia that set in, and I don't know how we're going to, you know, sort of fumigate, and get everybody back out of, you know, out of their apartments again.
Matthew Sherwood 45:49
Well, and we sort of set ourselves up for that, haven't we, with - I mean, my nextdoor feed is very much, very different here. It's all about someone's missing cat, or has anyone - wants some, you know, orange marmalade that someone's made, or whatever, but it's - but the - we've sort of set ourselves up, we can subsist from home, on our own, and without interaction. I mean, we think we can, maybe that's a better way of putting it.
Alexandra Pelosi 46:22
Where I live there are these apartment buildings, right. So, you have like, the penthouse people, who are, like, the party people. So, they have, like, fabulous parties. And they only go from Uber to penthouse to penthouse and their party. Then you have the midsection, which is just everybody who's just like the shut-ins, they're just getting their Instacart delivered, but they don't - they're just - I can see them, like, rear view window. I can, like, look out my window, and I can point out [...] then you have the service economy people that have no choice, that has to be in public. So, there's this sort of caste system, where we've put - there's like three tiers of people that you see. I see the, you know, penthouse parties, fabulous life, all very manicured and chaperoned, and then I see the middle people, you know, the people that are like, sheltering-in-place in their apartments, even though there's no real reason to. And then, the people you see on the street are just the people that are, you know, deliverymen, doormen, people that have to, you know, that they have to feed their children, so they have to be in public and be exposed. So, there's a true - we used to talk about the tale of two cities and income inequality. But now post Covid, it's like on crack and on steroids. That whole idea has been just, you know, because there's this whole mid-level section of people, and those are all the people I work with, that say they can't go to work, and I haven't figured out why they can't go to work. But I can tell you that you cannot get a lunch reservation anywhere in my neighborhood, so.
Matthew Sherwood 47:48
Well, I don't know if - you won't be working for the New York City tourist board anytime soon, but is this a very - is this a very New York phenomenon? I mean, I've been back to the US a few times, but - in the last couple of years - I was actually - those scenes you had on the plane brought back [memories], because I actually was in the States when everything hit, and I was probably on the last flight - one of the last flights - back to the UK with my sons, two of which [are] Paul and Thomas, so, I like your taste in names...
Alexandra Pelosi 48:22
No. Paul and Thomas?
Matthew Sherwood 48:24
I have a Paul and a Thomas, and a Patrick. So, yeah, yeah, so, lovely names, but yeah, we were - I'm in Hartsfield airport near Atlanta, international terminal, and there's not a single person to be seen. I mean, that's when the iPhone did come in handy. I did use, you know, that was a - I probably got more likes for that tweet than I've ever done; you know, it was just - but yeah, it's - I don't know we're not painting a very hopeful picture right now for - do you, I'm not looking to you for the answers or anything, but do you - I mean, do you have hope for the...
Alexandra Pelosi 49:07
No.
Matthew Sherwood 49:08
... future? No?
Alexandra Pelosi 49:09
No. Not for this country. I mean, I'm really, really worried about my children. Like, really in my soul, I'm worried about my children. My husband, who chose to become an American, his whole thing is, I'm afraid they're going to go to their school, and someone's gonna take out a gun and shoot them. He's always had that fear of gun thing because they don't have them. That was always his fear. Now, it's spread just city-wide to just any, you know, you can - I went yesterday to buy bread. Oh, my husband's a bread snob because Europeans they like real bread. In America we eat, like...
Matthew Sherwood 49:44
I know, I know.
Alexandra Pelosi 49:46
So, I went to go buy him some bread; this just happened yesterday, and I was standing in front of Eataly, which is, like, the fancy bread, whatever. A lot of tourists during the tourist season, but now they're sort of gone. And there was an elderly kind of guy standing in front of the place minding his own business. And then a young hustler type guy walks over and bumps right into him and says, Man, get the fuck out of my way, right? And then clearly reaches into his pocket, and takes his wallet. Like, the most obvious, easiest scam, and I'm like, Oh, God this is just so textbook. This is like a, this is like a skit, it's so obvious what's happening. So, I see this, and I think, Oh, appalled. I go over and I told the man, He just stole your wallet, thinking that, you know - and then the man goes - then the man turns on me, The assailant turns on me. Why you getting in my business?? He starts like he's going to kill me, and then I'm just thinking, Wow, I just learned a very valuable lesson. I came home and I told my children, Don't ever get engaged. When you see something wrong going on in the world, just shut your mouth, and march on home. Like, that's a real moment when you have that because you've been raising your children, I'm sure, like, be a responsible steward. Get out there like Greta Thunburg and march, and do something with your life, and save the planet, and save us all. And now I'm like, you just don't you dare open your mouth. If you see some injustice, you just run away.
Matthew Sherwood 51:14
Well, I don't know, I must say as someone who is not a New Yorker, this is starting to feel every - a lot of stereotypes I grew up with, but I think there's even...
Alexandra Pelosi 51:23
That's the cliché, it's so funny: New York City has become the cliché of what you thought it was. I mean, everybody I know says, I'm gonna get pushed on the tracks, man. Okay, that's happened like five times. It doesn't really happen that much. But there are a lot of subway rides every single day without somebody getting pushed on the tracks. But it's everybody's worst nightmare now; about, like, the one lady that got pushed and killed on the tracks on her way to work in the morning. So now, you know what happens was - it's just - that's how - that again is, like, the media. You don't report on the planes that land every day. We lead on the plane crash. It's the same thing. One person getting pushed on the tracks has prevented - now, the subways are just, This is a war zone out there. Be careful. I don't take the subways. By the way, my friend, the psychiatrist, she doesn't take the subways. She says, I can't. I can't. I can't take the subways. And I'm like, Aren't you a medical? Aren't you professional? Isn't this something you're supposed to do? Anyway. Yeah, we're not - not a lot of hope around here. Come up with a happy ending. Can you come up with a happy ending?
Matthew Sherwood 52:22
What would your mother say?
Alexandra Pelosi 52:24
Hm. I'm trying to think. I'm just trying to think. I don't know. You've stumped me, see; you stumped me. I don't know. I think...
Matthew Sherwood 52:56
Say some more prayers? Just learn to love each other? I don't know. But that's just very, I mean, that sounds very - it gets back to your tree hugger type.
Alexandra Pelosi 53:08
So, I get to go to church, like three times a day because they play the Mass. And I open the window, and I can hear it. And they have all [...] I grew up with - you know, all of the Jesus songs, which I know every word to because as a failed Catholic, I know that words to every hymn, right. And they play them, and I love living next to a church because I feel like even though I didn't go on Christmas, I feel like at least I get to pretend that I still have some faith in something because at least, you know, I may not be going but somebody's going. They're filling that place. And so, maybe that's our hope. Maybe whatever - whatever's going on there; maybe they're going to save us all. I'm not sure.
Matthew Sherwood 53:44
Why don't we leave it at that, and just to say thank you so much for joining us. I have to say this was the - I'm going to rate this is one of our top interviews on the podcast. Definitely.
Alexandra Pelosi 53:55
Ah, thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 53:57
Yeah, so...
Alexandra Pelosi 53:59
I haven't gotten many compliments lately. So, I'm, you know, I'm so used to the, like, the toxic sludge that - I will take that, and I will treasure it, and I will have a happy day today. Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 54:17
Well, and to put an exclamation point on that. I'll just remind our listeners and watchers that we've been talking with acclaimed filmmaker Alexandra Pelosi, producer and director of Pelosi in the House. You can still find it on HBO, and I think a little bit while longer Sky here in the UK. I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.
Factual America Outro 55:20
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