God Save Texas: Life in the Land of Oil and Gas
God Save Texas is a three-part docu-series inspired by Lawrence Wright’s book of the same name. In each episode, an acclaimed filmmaker explores the past, present, and future of the Lone Star State.
Episode One is directed by Richard Linklater, Episode Three by Iliana Sosa. Episode Two is directed by Alex Stapleton, and she joins Matthew Sherwood to discuss what it was like returning to her hometown of Houston to explore the effect of Texas’ oil and gas industry on her family and local communities.
That effect has been vast, for though the energy industry has brought a lot of prosperity to Texas, the cost it has charged has been equally high. Nevertheless, Alex explains that she has hope in the future. That hope rests firmly on the local communities. And it is so strong that Alex has now returned to live in Houston permanently.
Among the other topics that Alex and Matthew discuss are mythbusting, the industrial world that lies below Houston, how Lawrence Wright’s book helped Alex to articulate her mixed feelings towards Texas, and the absence and erasure of Alex’s community in Texas’ history.
The main thesis of God Save Texas is that what starts in the Lone Star State will in time be experienced by the rest of the US. The series, therefore, can be seen as being both an epic and intimate drama. Go behind the scenes of Alex’s part in it on Factual America.
“I think that the biggest lesson that I got out of making this film is that community is so important. And it's what makes Texas so unique... Texas has always had this wild wild west identity, but we find community, we build communities...the people of this state are pretty incredible.” – Alex Stapleton
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for God Save Texas
02:14 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Alex Stapleton, and her docu-series, God Save Texas
04:25 – Alex explains what God Save Texas is about
08:35 – Alex discusses the episode of God Save Texas that she directed: The Price of Oil
11:06 – Houston and Huntsville and the families who live there – side- by-side but also apart
14:09 – The adverse effect of little or no regulation of the energy industry
17:46 – How The Price of Oil developed in the researching
22:45 – Alex discusses the hope she has for the environmental future of Texas
32:13 – The origin of the God Save Texas docu-series
34:23 – How and why Alex came onboard God Save Texas
36:43 – The vulnerability of appearing before the camera
37:33 – Matthew reflects on how God Save Texas made him homesick
39:58 – The difficulty Alex faced in putting her family on camera
41:55 – Covid: The biggest challenge that Alex faced in making The Price of Oil
43:26 – Alex: Once a Houstonian, now a Houstonian again
46:43 – Discussing Alex’ latest project: How Music Got Free
Resources:
God save Texas
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Alex Stapleton
More from Factual America:
Mining Appalachia: Preserving the Story of King Coal
Deep in the Heart of Texas Wildlife
Building Trump's Border Wall in Texas
Transcript for Factual America Episode 158: God Save Texas: Life in the Land of Oil and Gas
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:14)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. God Save Texas is a trilogy of films inspired by the Lawrence Wright book of the same name. Filmmakers Richard Linklater, Alex Stapleton and Iliana Sosa return to their hometowns to shine a light on a side of Texas that often goes unreported, bringing to life the complex history and future of the Lone Star State. But where Texas goes, so goes the nation. Joining us is Alex Stapleton, the acclaimed director of the second part of the trilogy, The Price of Oil. Alex documents the adverse impact that the oil and gas industry has had on local communities. Her family's history is indeed the history of Texas. And as the former Texas exile has found out, you can go home again. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 01:02
Alex Stapleton, welcome to Factual America, how are things with you?
Alex Stapleton 01:06
Amazing. Thanks for having me.
Matthew Sherwood 01:09
Yeah, it's great to get you on. To remind our listeners and our viewers we are talking about God Save Texas - The Price of Oil. The series released on HBO in late February. It's also available to stream on Max. And we're talking to Alex who's directed Part Two, I guess, of the trilogy. And so, it's great to finally have you on as we were discussing before, we have tried to get you on before; so, thank you, again. I'm glad schedules finally have aligned. We usually start off by asking our filmmakers what is their film all about? But as it's gonna have to be a two-parter, I feel like; so, if you don't mind, maybe you could start us off because you're the first - we tried to get Richard and Iliana on; they have, you know, but you are the lucky one to represent the enterprise, if you will. What is the series God Save Texas all about?
Alex Stapleton 02:03 (04:25)
So, the series is inspired by the book of the same title written by Lawrence Wright, God Save Texas, which was really a, you know, semi-autobiographical look at Larry's life, and also trying to explain the state of Texas to the rest of the country. And it was a challenge that was started actually based on a New Yorker article that he did. And as he tells me, the title is actually a prayer to talk about Texas, where we are right now, our place, you know, when it comes to, you know, the United States, but also our place in the world, and how there's, you know, industries here that are really dead - industries and issues, I would say, and politics that are, you know, basically - with the book and as well as the trilogy, you know, I think that the big thesis there is that how goes Texas is how goes the rest of the country. You know, we're tackling and dealing with issues that are if not already a problem - or issues across the US, but will, you know, become more and more, you know, issues that the country is going to have to face; and so, how do we look at that, and not really attack it from a political lens, but kind of attack it from, you know, this - from a storytelling lens and going back to hometowns and, like, talking about our family and our identity as Texans. And that those stories, you know, there's, as you said, there's an enterprise, there's - or a trilogy as we call it, but there's three different films from three different places, three different filmmakers with various different backgrounds, and it's kind of us talking about issues, but through the lens of our families and our lived experience in the state.
Matthew Sherwood 04:00
Yeah, and Texas is a state of contradictions, to say the least.
Alex Stapleton 04:04
Absolutely. A giant paradox. A giant paradox, maybe the biggest paradox that I think I've ever been a part of.
Matthew Sherwood 04:15
Because I think you describe yourself as an exiled Texan is that right?
Alex Stapleton 04:19
Yeah. I was - when I began this journey, at the end of 2019, I had been a Texan-in-exile for over 20 years. You know, I left because I felt limited, you know, with the future that I could have here. And then moved to New York and LA, you know, there wasn't really a big film scene in Houston. So, went out to go do that. And actually, through making this film, I just, I kind of have this new relationship with my hometown, my state, and I moved back; so, yeah, I'm coming to you live and direct from Houston, Texas.
Matthew Sherwood 05:02
Oh my goodness. Wow. So, that answers one question I had already. But so, I will tell you too, I'm an exiled Texan and haven't made the journey back yet. I am born and raised in San Antonio; so, I've been in the UK - but I've been in the UK for over 20 years. So, but I do get back there every so often, and each time it's like another, it's like a whole new place every time you go, and then at the same time, some things just never change really, both good and bad. But why don't we focus - so, before we talk - before I go wax poetic about Texas or not - let's then zero in and focus on your episode because yours is part two of the trilogy. So, you had Richard Linklater's who does his first, you don't have to watch them that way, but that's, you know, his is the one about Huntsville, and everything that - everyone who's a Texan knows goes on in Huntsville. Huntsville is only known for one thing for most of us - but your episode is The Price of Oil. Now what is that one all about, besides your family and the great city of Houston.
Alex Stapleton 06:13 (08:35)
So, you know, it's me taking a look at the oil industry, you know, Houston is the energy capital of the United States of America, a major player and geographical location with, you know, within the industry, business, you know, globally, as well. And I wanted to take a look - or the film kind of examines the good, the bad and the ugly of that. Maybe not so much of the good, but I take a look at the reality, I guess, is - instead of the good, you know, energy, fossil fuel, the fossil fuel industry is something that we all rely on. All of us. And I really wanted to make something to show people well, what is the cost of that? And what is the - what is the cost that, you know, that Houstonians play in that, you know, in that game, but then I realised in the process of being a part of this project, like, how deep, like, my own ancestry and my own connection, my family's connection to the state, like, the price that we pay. And I wanted to also take a look at kind of like kicking down the myths of Texas, you know, the myths that this state is - state is a really good storyteller. And the stories that they make up are tall tales, and they're not really ever based in reality, but they are nonetheless very good and persuasive at how they talk about not only history, but current situations. So, I think the film kind of, I like to say it mythbusts, you know, it kind of pushes back on a narrative about the history of the state, and the role of black Texans and that we've played in the state. But within the oil industry, I think that there's also this myth that, like, you know, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Like, it's good...
Matthew Sherwood 08:23
Right, right.
Alex Stapleton 08:25
... it's good for us to have energy, you know, based here because it's job creation, and, you know, like, you enter into a healthy middle class and, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 08:32
It funds the universities, right.
Alex Stapleton 08:36
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's just not true, you know, for everyone. So, that was a big piece of the film as well.
Matthew Sherwood 08:44 (11:06)
So, you know, and for our listeners, we've got an international audience. I mean, you know, Houston is, like, the fourth largest city US. I mean, it's now a thriving - by a lot of people's perceptions - is thriving cosmopolitan city. You do polls, a lot of people tell you it's one of their favourite cities now in the US, but, you know, I think as you're talking about there's this other side of Houston that many people don't see. And that straight, right, literally bangs up against your family...
Alex Stapleton 09:15
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 09:17
... and your history, which is...
Alex Stapleton 09:18
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 09:18
... the state's history.
Alex Stapleton 09:20
Yeah, I think that that's a universal kind of theme throughout each film in this trilogy, that there's kind of this industry or the - this, like, you know, for Rick it's a huge prison, and, like, everyone kind of lives their life, you know, but not really - people don't really contextualise all the time, like, oh, wow, there's [...] sitting there and people are being executed and you know, there's, like, this crazy whole world that's right next to where I'm going to college or where my kid goes to school. And for me, you know, here in Houston, it's kind of the same thing. Houston is growing: it's the fourth largest city in the country, and a lot of people come here, you know, there's a lot of immigrants that come to this country - that come to Houston and find, you know, great - they love it. And it offers, you know, a lot of great things. There's a lot of people that work in the medical industry, and, you know, [...], you know, come here and find opportunity. But what's interesting is that most people don't realise that on the east side of town, it's close to the ship channel, you know, it doesn't even look like the rest of the city. It's like this crazy world, that unless you have a reason to go over there, you could live your whole life on the west side of town...
Matthew Sherwood 10:48
Right.
Alex Stapleton 10:49
... and never know that this industry exists. But the other crazy thing that I don't really get into, in a real way, in a major way, in the series, I just mention it in passing, is that underneath the city, there's a whole world, you know, there's pipelines, and all sorts of stuff being pumped from the Permian Basin. Underneath the city, all sorts of, you know, chemicals and chemical waste that's being stored underneath us. And so, you know, it's actually very pervasive, and, like, how present industry is all over the city, but above ground, you know, like, it's kind of one area that you would have to - there's just, like, very extreme, I guess you could say.
Matthew Sherwood 11:34
But you would - so, as you've already said, you moved away, you're away for, like, around 20 years. And then you've come back to do this project; had you - I mean, things got - had been - have actually gotten worse, haven't they. I mean, had you realised how bad they were?
Alex Stapleton 11:48 (14:09)
Yeah. I think politically and because of climate change and unregulated, no regulation, or hardly any oversight, I would say, you know, with the oil and gas industry here, it has gotten worse. You know, the history of oil and gas, its presence in this state - it's kind of a recent thing for us, you know; Spindletop, which was the beginning of the oil boom, was at the turn of the century. And so, you know, and then that took a while to turn into kind of the petrochemical like, you know, complex that exists now, that kind of maybe started to really, you know, pump up, you know, in the 60s and 70s. And so, now we're dealing with, like, the waste from those things, and, you know, how that impacts, you know, our land and natural preservation, you know, of this area, this very swampy area. But I think that in, you know, especially from the 70s until now, I think there's been, you know - citizens don't, you know, the average person here doesn't really think about it, or they just think that it's normal. And so, it's like, we've kind of turned, you know, I think the other way. Of course, there are activists on the ground, and people that have been sounding the alarm for a very long time. It's not to discredit their work. But I think, you know, most Houstonians don't really think about, you know, this issue, and then you have a government in place on a state level that is doing everything that they possibly can to, like, not talk about it, you know, and to keep it very secret and to not have transparency over these issues. So, it's kind of the perfect storm, and then you have climate change that's just...
Matthew Sherwood 13:40
... literally storms. Yeah.
Alex Stapleton 13:43
And like just, taking the, you know, the carbonated, like, drink and shaking it in the bottle, and then, you know, when something - when a climate disaster happens, it's just, it's horrible, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 13:57
Yeah, no, I've just - because I was amazed, because you have some of these scenes - because it isn't all - it's not about drone shots, but you do have these shots and things where I used to make - you know, my family used to make this journey on I-10 going east to visit some family out east, you know, about the time we got to Houston, and then all the way through to Louisiana until New Orleans and so - you know, there's just a sulphur smell in the air and everything but I, that was 40 years ago, so - and I couldn't believe how massive things - I mean, the whole complex has become. I mean, it's just, it's, you know, and then there's your family like, literally - they're called fence line communities - oh, it's not your family but someone who's in Port Arthur said that his parents remember they can literally put their arms out the window and touch them, you know. But at the same time this is not an expose on Frontline, this is a very personal journey, and I guess it's another way of - it's a great way of bringing these - make these issues real. I mean how was that for you? I mean, you know, as you said, this has led to even big changes in your life. But, you know, you're obviously visiting your mom and extended family, filmed mostly during Covid, I gather, from, you know, and your family's history is the history of Texas. I mean, it's a very personal journey for you. How was that?
Alex Stapleton 15:19
That was actually a very big surprise, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 15:22
Really?
Alex Stapleton 15:23 (17:46)
Yeah. When I met with Larry, I was, you know, my name got thrown into a hat, you know, to do this. Rick had already done his film, and they were looking for two more Texan filmmakers. I had already read the book and was obsessed with it because Larry's book kind of put into - it articulated these feelings that I had, this, like, mixed bag of emotions that I had for being a Texan. You know, like, I didn't understand why I had this, like, arrogance of, like, we're the best state in the country. But also, like, hated it, you know, like, it was two, you know, very extreme, like, feelings. And Larry really made sense of that. And so, when I met him, I was, you know, over the moon to be considered for the project. He was really excited that, you know, I was a Houstonian because he really wanted to have to fit in an oil story into the trilogy. And - but, you know, when we started, I think the beginning of the journey was - Larry was really interested in trying to unpack the process, you know, of oil and gas and how we extract it, what happens when it's extracted, and then how it gets used, and kind of like, kind of looking at the whole state of like, the impact that that has. And even like, you know, the, like, an oil - you know, a boom or bust economy, and what does that mean? He really wanted people to understand, like, this is what it looks like, you know, but from the state's perspective, and he also really wanted to unpack the kind of the financial part of the industry. And so I, you know, we met up in Houston, and we went around, and we met with a number of people that work in the industry, and some, you know, really amazing professor, you know, people that study this, and were really interesting conversationalists to, like, to break down, like, the future of oil and gas, and even, you know, we were gonna get into renewable energy, and what does that look like, because most people don't understand that the renewable mission and a lot of the renewable work is happening in Texas as well. And so - but as we were doing that, literally, we had, like, a week, I think, of back-to-back meetings, and on the last night, we went to dinner, and, you know, you were hearing about Covid, you know, in the news, and then all of a sudden I was on my phone and I got a, you know, a notice that the Houston rodeo had been cancelled. And it was like, it's here. Because for people who don't understand Houston, Texas, we have the biggest rodeo in the country. And for this city, in this state to be behind shutting down the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. It's like, Houston, we have a problem; like, something...
Matthew Sherwood 18:30
Right, right.
Alex Stapleton 18:31
... is going on. So, I remember, you know, and then immediately we went into, like, a lock down, and I was staying with my mother, I had my son here. And I think because of Covid it allowed me to kind of reprocess what I thought the film was for me as a filmmaker, and I continued to do research, but the more research I did, the more I was, like, talking with my mother, who's, you know, our family historian, about - you know, for every fact I learn, like, when I learned about Spindletop or, you know, knew more about what happened and all these things in history, I was like, Where's the black experience in that, where were black people in this story, and I couldn't - it was just like, non-existent. But then my mother was telling me about, like, this, you know, we've been in this state for almost 200 years. So, then I started having those conversations with Larry. And the film started to kind of turn, you know, it was fascinating, and so, the story kind of became, instead of like, telling you about an industry that you - it was kind of about the erasure and the absence of my community and my family, in the biggest industry, you know, in the state and, you know, in the country. And so, then it became, you know, this personal journey and Larry was instrumental, as well as Alex Gibney, who's an EP on the project. I was kind of pulling that out of me, because, you know, I've been making docs for 20 years, and I've never turned the camera on myself, let alone my family and my hometown. And so, it was extremely uncomfortable. But yeah, that, and so that's what - that became the new journey that I embarked on.
Matthew Sherwood 20:23 (22:45)
Okay. And so, it's, you know, we don't go - tend to in these interviews - we don't go into details of the film: everyone should just go watch it, but, you know, it's, yeah, it's not great in terms of the environmental degradation and the impact it's having on communities and those communities that are directly affected, obviously, vast majority are in the black and Latino communities and things like that, but do you come away with any hope after having filmed this? You must have some because you've moved to Houston.
Alex Stapleton 21:05
Yeah, I do. I do have hope. I have hope, but I think that my hope is in the - is in community. And I think that the biggest lesson that I got out of making this film is that community is so important. And it's what makes Texas so unique; and one good way is that we come from a culture of, like, amazing communities, that we're, we - you know, I don't know if it's a southern thing, or just that Texas has always had this kind of like, you know, wild Wild West kind of like identity, but we find community, we build communities - the people of the state, I'm not talking about the government, but the people of this state are pretty incredible. And I feel like, you know, within the black community, I feel like, the black community is incredible in this state. But, you know, the challenge is a government that is trying to make us feel like we're just individuals, you know, and reinforcing this idea that it's just - it's your lone journey, it's, you know, pull your own self up by your bootstraps, you know, it's the rugged individualism, that is always the point of conversation. And if you want to be something, it's all in you. And that, you know - look, it's important to be the best person that you can be, being an individual is very, it's amazing. But we also have to realise that we're a part, we're one piece of a community and of a bigger thing. And I think that if we can really understand the responsibility that we have to community, that's what I have hope for, and I think the rest will follow. But, you know, it's Herculean, you know; like, what we have to do and what we have to - the work that's ahead of us. Because, you know, a lot of us, there's just been so much to just break up the fabric of like, of community and so, I have hope, but I also am a realist in that it's going to be a really, really, really uphill situation.
Matthew Sherwood 23:48
No, it's interesting that rugged individualism run amok. I mean, that's, yes, it's Texas, but - in a lot of ways that's the United States, isn't it? I mean, this atomisation everyone talks about it, and polarisation, whatever you want to call it, but I, yes, we're so; and let's, I mean, I'll be the old man in the room and say, Well, you know, social media and all that. But it's more than that. I mean, it's like, it's just so inbred into, you know, the way we're raised and everything that I think we have lost.
Alex Stapleton 24:19
Yeah, things don't get done in isolation, nothing. Nothing gets done in isolation. You know, everything takes - you know, to make a movie, it takes a community of people coming together [...] you know, to make - for any of these industries, you know, like, it takes people coming together. And so, I think that, you know, there's always groups of people. So, the first thing is like, just, you know, taking; like, knocking that wire out. But then it becomes a game of like, well, what, you know, why does this group of people matter more than this group of people, and why is their health - or why are their financial, you know, goals and well, as corporations even, you know, like, why is that more important than communities of people that have built communities out of sheer willpower, and that kind of pulling up your bootstraps; they have survived, in spite of so many crazy things to, you know, to foster a community. And now, you know, with the oil and gas industry, there's just kind of this, well, you don't matter, you know, and you don't get a seat at the table and you get - you have no decision making powers when it comes to like, what we're going to do and how we're going to move into these areas, and do what we want, when we want, without you, without you knowing or having a voice in it. And that's just egregious, you know; so, I think the film, it had a screening here in Houston a couple of weeks ago, and I invited my family and I also invited members of the community that I profile in the film. And it was really, I think, the hardest thing. I mean, everyone was really happy, you know, and it was very joyous, but the really sobering moment were these conversations with my family, and people that live in these areas, and they're like, I didn't even realise it was that bad. I didn't even, you know, drone shots of like, how it - how - what a fence line looks like, it's, like, gives you goosebumps, because it's like this, you can just look at those shots and go, There's something not right here, you know, like, this should not be legal, I'm sorry. You know, there's another way, you know, everybody. And then for people, like, that live here that, you know, like I was saying before that live in different areas further west. Most of them are, like, saying what you said, like, Oh, you know, when I go over there when I'm driving to New Orleans, I smell stuff, but like - you know, and so, I think that was what - I think if more people are tuned in to, like, the reality of it, that will help us to come together as a community to, you know, to provide or like, at least start these conversations of like, different solutions, or, you know, just like, how do we fix this? What can we do at this point?
Matthew Sherwood 27:31
Well, we're all humans, and we're all in - I mean, maybe that's the thing with the whole environmental side of things. We're all in it together, whatever we think about other things, we're all in this together now. We're all on the same little blue marble...
Alex Stapleton 27:44
Exactly.
Matthew Sherwood 27:44
... flying through the universe.
Alex Stapleton 27:45
And we're all dependent on it, together, you know, and I think - that was also really important that I wanted to make. I'm not pro the fossil fuel industry, like, wreaking havoc on humans, but, at the same time, like, it's like, you know, there's a lot of people that are like, Rah, rah, you know, burn it down. Burn the industry down, they're evil, but like, are ordering Amazon, you know, five times a week or - you know what I mean? It's really complicated, and it's not a binary problem. And I think, again, that is a part of this - the themes of this series, is that these are very complex issues. But how do we even start the process of figuring it out when we're in denial that the problem even exists, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 28:38
And that's even what Larry Wright says in your episode; he even says, the more I look at this, the more complex I realise it is, and he's already been looking at this, right. So, yeah, we're gonna give our listeners and viewers a quick break. So, we'll be right back with Alex Stapleton, the director of God Save Texas: The Price of Oil, part of an HBO trilogy, looking at the Lone Star State. It's now streaming on Max.
Factual America Midroll 29:05
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 29:22 (32:13)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Alex Stapleton, the acclaimed director of God Save Texas: The Price of Oil, part two of the HBO docu-series that examines Texas through the eyes of three directors with ties to the Lone Star State, and you can catch it on Max, certainly in North America. I imagine it's available elsewhere. Google it if you want to find out where it is. You've already touched on this a bit but whose idea was it to base a series on Larry Wright's book. I mean, how did that come about? I mean, I - if you're able - if you know how that all happened.
Alex Stapleton 30:01
The origin? Well...
Matthew Sherwood 30:03
... a brief origin story on the...
Alex Stapleton 30:05
A brief origin story. Well, you know, Larry Wright has collaborated with the filmmaker Alex Gibney on a number of projects over the years. They're kind of like, in my opinion, a dream team of filmmaker and journalist that love taking on very complex issues.
Matthew Sherwood 30:26
Phew, yes!
Alex Stapleton 30:27
Yeah. Deep and dark, like, windy roads from scientology, you know, to our, you know, our presence in the Middle East. So, they - Alex knew that this book was coming out. And I believe, I mean, don't quote me on this, but I think that Alex was really into the book, but he's not a Texan. So, it was like, well...
Matthew Sherwood 30:57
That's right.
Alex Stapleton 30:57
... yeah, he's like, I love your work, Larry, and I would love to try to deconstruct this, and to turn it into a documentary, but, you know, he's not Texan. And I think that in their conversation, they realised that this, to bring this to life, it really needs to be through the lens of people that have, you know, grown up here and understand this place. And Larry is also really good friends with Rick - Richard Linklater. And so, that was the first call, you know, and [...] into the idea, you know, very brave of him to take on making a doc, when he's just such a brilliant narrative, you know, scripted filmmaker, and made an awesome, you know, documentary. But yeah, so that's how I got started. And then they wanted to find two more filmmakers, and I think it was just important to try to, you know, have us talk about very, you know, a myriad of different things, so.
Matthew Sherwood 32:02 (34:23)
I mean, how did they know to reach out to you? I mean, obviously, do you go around saying, I'm from Texas. I mean, is it sort, you just...
Alex Stapleton 32:10
How did they know to reach out to me? Well, I do have quite a reputation in the LA and New York areas bragging about the state of Texas.
Matthew Sherwood 32:18
That's interesting.
Alex Stapleton 32:19
I'm just like, I heard about the project and my team...
Matthew Sherwood 32:23
Right.
Alex Stapleton 32:24
... my team says that I'm, like, a die hard, you know, Texan, and as soon as I - I don't remember how I heard about it, but as soon, like, it was on the radar, I was like, we have to do everything we possibly can to get on this project, so.
Matthew Sherwood 32:38
Yeah. And then - so, you know, it's a trilogy, but you got three different directors, each with your own style as you've even said. Rick Linklater is not - he's narrative. He's not even a documentarian by training or by practice. In each of the films, how much collaboration was there between the three of you, because they all stand on their own, but they're also part of a greater whole. How did you coordinate that? Or did you?
Alex Stapleton 33:06
Hey, you know, we didn't really have any real communication. I think I saw a rough cut of Rick's when I started; so, I knew he was on camera. I definitely, like I said before, was not - I didn't start this journey thinking that I was going to be on camera.
Matthew Sherwood 33:23
No director ever does.
Alex Stapleton 33:25 (36:43)
Yeah, exactly. So, when my film morphed into that, I think then it became like, Okay, this is the trilogy. You know, this is the [...] all these films have to have. And so, Iliana came on board. She's from El Paso and [...] documentarian. And so, when they, you know, were talking to her, it was like, okay, yeah, prerequisite of this project is you have to be on camera. And she had just last year, you know, she did a beautiful film that was very introspective about her grandfather and about where she had put her family on in her film, and so, I think for her, it was like, Oh, I'm doing, you know, I'm doing this again. She was interested to move into a different direction. So, for all of us, we had this weird relationship, I think, with putting ourselves out there like that, you know, and it's a very - it's always vulnerable to be on the other side of the lens, but I think this is like extra vulnerable, because it's not just your story, it's your family's story, and you're - you know, you're trying really hard to not - like, my family, we're not the definitive, like, Texan story, you know; like, we're not the definitive black - you know, this is not the definitive black experience, but it's - but you want to work and to use, you know, your family's story to just help people relate to the material that you're trying, you know, to these bigger themes and the bigger substance of stories that you're trying to get across. And I think that's what's so cool about this series is that everyone's got aunts and uncles and parents, you know, like...
Matthew Sherwood 35:10 (37:33)
I mean, it made me homesick, I have to say. I think you and Larry had this exchange where you're like, we're, you know, very different backgrounds, but we have these commonalities, and that scene where you've got all your aunts and your cousins and great-aunt on there. And then even the pictures you have of you growing up, it reminded me - I mean, I didn't have - I mean, I wish I'd had been around my cousins as much as you were around yours, but, you know, those family gatherings - and you're saying, is this a southern thing? Is it a Texan? I can tell you, because my dad's from - got southern roots, yeah, there's a little bit of that, but it's definitely very uniquely Texan. It's - yeah, no, it's the - well, it's certainly the - because you say it's a state of tall tales. It's the - what I remember, and this has come up in other episodes we've had where we've had Texas filmmakers on who've had, not always, but sometimes have been set in Texas, because we actually had the Horton Foote documentary we had on and she was saying, it's all about the - there is that storytelling. I do remember that. You are sitting around, and you when you're young, the old people telling stories, and, you know, whatever the background, and my background's very different than yours, but there is that commonality in there. Even the way your aunts, your old aunts are saying certain things were exactly the way - you know, the way they even said - like, I mean, you know, may she rest in peace, I gather your great-aunt Lela's passed away now, but even the way she said, We moved here on October 3 1954. You know, I was like, Oh, gosh, that's like, you know, I've had that conversation, right, you know, so, it is - yeah, so, it's so real. It's so - yeah, so for those of you wondering, that's not - it's very unique, but it's also not atypical, I can tell you, those kinds of gatherings and those experiences in the Domino's. Oh, my goodness. I miss - yeah, you gotta have Domino's; someone's got a table full of Domino's, you know - but how was - I mean, I've, you're not the first person to have their family on camera and stuff, and as you've already said, Iliana had hers. But how difficult was that? Because that's got - you know, like you said, it was not just you out there putting yourself on the line, it's your whole family.
Alex Stapleton 37:37 (39:58)
That was challenging. You know, I think my family, my parents probably understand, I think at this point, what I do; my extended family, you know, they see my name on docs that come out, but I don't think that they understand, like, what goes into making a documentary or what my goal really is in it. And so, you know, I went around to every single person in my family to kind of get their, like, are you in or are you out, you know. Another layer of this is that I do have some cousins that work in the oil and gas...
Matthew Sherwood 38:11
Right.
Alex Stapleton 38:11
... industry. You know, including my own siblings who were, like, yeah, no; like, we're not jumping on this bandwagon. We like our, you know, we love our jobs, and we're not doing anything to jeopardise that, and I was, like, totally respect that. So, you know, the film was made with everyone who was okay with, you know, saying, you know, speaking out, sharing their experience. And I remember when, on the first day of me going to my, for the, the Domino scene, you know, when my family gathering [...]. I showed up and I have, like, all these people, you know, like, huge cameras, we had, like, some gear to do a dolly shot, and...
Matthew Sherwood 39:01
Right, right.
Alex Stapleton 39:02 (41:55)
... there's just all these humans, like, with me, and I think my family was like, Ah, like, we thought that you were just going to be shooting this on, like, maybe your cell phone. I don't think they realised how, you know, how big the equipment and the crew were going to be. Not that I roll with, like, that many people, but, so that was interesting, but they adjusted really quickly. And I think that the challenge - the most challenging part of it was filming during Covid and, you know, just trying to, you know, this is pre-vaccine Covid, and, you know, trying to be really cautious and careful with not, like, getting my crew, you know, sick, not getting my family sick. And there are so many things that, like, I'm just so used to doing. Like, you'll notice in the other two films, there's scenes where, you know, Iliana and Rick are driving around in a car with Larry and kind of doing a tour of where they're from...
Matthew Sherwood 40:10
... Right.
Alex Stapleton 40:11
I shot mine during Covid, and that wasn't, you know, the DGA was like, you could not, I could not get in a car with someone and do that, you know, like it was a bit isolating of how to even [...] shooting the thing. And you know, we're wearing masks in a lot of the shots. So, it was a - there were things as a filmmaker that I was a bit annoyed with that I couldn't, you know, I couldn't creatively pull off. But, you know, the way I look at it now is like, it's kind of like a time capsule of just what it was like, you know, to make docs in that time period, so.
Matthew Sherwood 40:49
Well, thank your family for us. I'm glad they co-operated because it's a wonderful part of the film. And so, now that you've moved back to Houston, you can go home again. Is that what you're going to tell us?
Alex Stapleton 41:05 (43:26)
Yeah. I am back. I live in the heart of the city. And I'm, you know, I've got my family here. I thought - I mean, the plan was never to move back. I thought that I would leave, like, while I was doing this, I was also making a film called Reggie. And it just so happened - Reggie Jackson, it's about the baseball player - he left the Yankees and went to the Astros, so I was also, like, embedded with the Astros.
Matthew Sherwood 41:36
That's right. I forgot about that.
Alex Stapleton 41:37
Yeah, yeah. And then I also was filming another project about the George Floyd murder, and was working on that. So, I had, you know, for 20 years, I had been gone and never shot anything in Houston, even in Texas. And then all of a sudden, I was making all of this content and telling all these stories and everything was Houston based. And it just like the light bulb went on for me creatively that, you know, as a filmmaker, I moved to New York and then to LA and you're always like, kind of searching outward to find stories. And now, I'm in this new chapter of life, my career where I, it's not that I want to continue to tell stories about me or my family. But when I say inward, it means like, where I'm from, you know, and that's Texas, that's the South, that's the Gulf Coast. I really think it's important to, for more stories to come out of here, you know, I think that's, even with the reception of like, you know, how people received the series, I think, that far too often, we kind of have this binary feeling of like, LA, the coasts, you know [...] and whatever you want to make of that, right. And I, being from here, this area, like, it's so rich, and there's so many stories that have never been told, and I would like to be a part of unearthing, you know, more to share, so.
Matthew Sherwood 43:16
You know, you'll never run out of material.
Alex Stapleton 43:19
That's very true! Very good business decision!
Matthew Sherwood 43:23
Very good business decision! But I also love how you open up the film with you're driving, and the guy pulls alongside you and wants to know what the hell are you doing with that camera out there, you know, and he's like - and then, but on that scene, you're talking about these stories that are being told, you know, that you want to, you know, and if there is a golden age of documentary, you know, they do get that question now and then, but it's, well, certainly, whether it's still happening or not, but certainly what has been really so wonderful about the last 10-15 years or more, it's just the wealth of voices and viewpoints that are now coming to the fore. And...
Alex Stapleton 44:01
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 44:01
... and getting filmed and seen and heard. So, that's - so, you know, that's great. As an exile now I have to think - I have to rethink my whole life and career...
Alex Stapleton 44:15
Come home! Come home. Bring it on in.
Matthew Sherwood 44:17 (46:43)
... yeah, my mom would be happy. But I think we're actually coming to the end of our time, Alex, but before we go, just what's next for you? I knew you just had something drop at South by, didn't you?
Alex Stapleton 44:32
Yeah, so, you know, home and went to my first - participated in my first South by Southwest festival, which is here in Texas. And so, that feels - it felt great to premiere a film here in the state. That film was called How Music Got Free. Again, another story that is deeply southern. With the cast and the main character, but, you know, that's about music piracy. And everyone kind of knows the Napster story, and how it killed the music industry. This is about the kids, the pirates that were - that proved that this technology could work and their community online, and the Patient Zero of all of that is a black man from Shelby, North Carolina in the middle of farm country. Never went to college, worked in a factory. And, you know, worked at a plant by day and was a pirate online by night. And really is the reason that the whole industry changed and went upside down, and so - yeah, and I - again, you know, I'm not from Shelby, but like, this is yet another, I think I'm liking this new world of, you know, just unearthing more black stories, more southern stories of, you know, what we have done, you know, what we have contributed, and how rich and, you know - the stories are just, you know, endless here. And - this was based on a book, actually, How Music Got Free, but to be able to tell his story, and to kind of put him in the pantheon, of like, we talk about Steve Jobs, and, you know, the iPod and all of that, but here's the guy that should have a, you know, a place in that story. So - and I got my company, House of NonFiction, went independent with that this year; we've been around for - going into our third year, and just really trying to do more stories, you know, myself, but also trying to bring in more filmmakers and help them on their journeys of doing the same, you know. The industry is just so crazy and different now, but docs are, you know, becoming more and more, they're becoming easier to do. And I think that with that comes, you know, a mandate that we've got to go out there and find these, like, unique and awesome stories, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 47:19
Well, long may it last, and thank you so much, and can't wait to check that out. So, that's just premiered. So, is it - it'll be a little while before it's available, I imagine.
Alex Stapleton 47:27
Yes. That's going to be out - very grateful that we have a home. That's going to be on Paramount Plus, on P-Plus, this summer. And so, yeah, everyone can stay tuned for that rollout. But yeah, really exciting.
Matthew Sherwood 47:45
Well, that is exciting. And well, we'll definitely check it out. And just want to say Alex, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much. And to remind everyone we've been talking with Alex Stapleton, the acclaimed director of God Save Texas: The Price of Oil. Three part series can be found now on Max. Do check it out. It's definitely worth a watch, even if you're not from Texas. So, thank you so much.
Alex Stapleton 48:09
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Matthew Sherwood 48:11
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 48:58
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