Against All Enemies: US Veterans Fighting Their Own Country
Why would US military veterans take up arms against the country they swore to protect? This is the question at the heart of Against All Enemies, a new documentary by Charlie Sadoff. In it, Charlie explores the role disaffected veterans played in the January 6th attack on the US Capitol.
In order to better understand what happened on that day, he looks at the history of civil unrest involving veterans, from groups such as the Ku Klux Klan through to modern day extremist organisations like the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. His journey takes him not only inside these groups but to the top as he meets their leaders.
In conversation with Matthew Sherwood, Charlie discusses the answers he found to the question of why veterans join extremist groups, and what the aims of those groups are, as well as some of the people involved in them, including former National Security Advisor, Michael Flynn. He also considers whether there could be another January 6th attack, and if so, where.
If the picture for veterans looks bleak, Charlie does offer hope. There are groups that help vets transition back to civilian life. But, as he tells Matthew, more needs to be done. Go behind the scenes of the threats and dangers facing America’s veterans in Against All Enemies with Matthew Sherwood and Charlie Sadoff on Factual America.
“Jason Crow was a congressman... barricaded inside the floor of the chamber of the House... he asked this question, How did I a veteran end up on one side of this door, and other veterans who swore the same oath I did end up on the other side of this door? That to me was a very provocative question. And the fact that it was coming from him made it all the more powerful.” – Charlie Sadoff
Time Stamps
02:06 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Charlie Sadoff, director of Against All Enemies
04:53 – Charlie explains what Against All Enemies is about
07:01 – Identifying the aims of American extremist groups like the Proud Boys
11:17 – Why some veterans join extremist groups
13:54 – The ‘salad bar grievance narrative’ that extremist groups use to aid recruitment
16:13 – Overt language vs dog whistles
17:46 – How Charlie gained access to extremist figures
20:11 – Matthew and Charlie on General E and Michael Flynn
26:09 – Discussing the film’s January 6 footage
30:40 – Charlie on whether he thinks another insurrection could take place
34:15 – Discussing the possibility of a civil war and what shape it might take
35:37 – How Charlie got involved in the Against All Enemies project
37:18 – Reaction to the film so far
41:21 – The danger of calling extremist groups ‘ragtag’ groups and what can be done to help veterans
47:27 – Against All Enemies as Charlie Sadoff’s directorial debut and what is next for him
Resources:
Against All Enemies
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Charlie Sadoff
More from Factual America:
God Save Texas: Life in the Land of Oil and Gas
Finding Hope amidst Hate in A Town Called Victoria
The Rise and Fall of America's Most Corrupt Police Squad
Transcript for Factual America Episode 159: Against All Enemies: US Veterans Fighting Their Own Country
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:06)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Why would US military veterans take up arms against the country they swore to protect? That is the question that Against All Enemies tries to answer. While most US veterans are successful in their transition to civilian life, an increasingly radicalised element is drawn to insurrectionist movements, such as the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, among others. Joining us is director and producer Charlie Sadoff. His quest to answer a seemingly simple question with its roots in January 6, led him to explore the historical roots of the insurrectionist cause in America and its conspiracy field draw for today's veterans. In the end, Charlie fears we are in for another wave of political violence as Americans head to the polls in November. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 01:00
Charlie Sadoff, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Charlie Sadoff 01:04
Things are good, thank you very much. Great to be here.
Matthew Sherwood 01:07
Yeah. It's great to have you on. Just to remind our listeners and viewers we will be talking about your feature doc, Against All Enemies, premiered at Tribeca, is that right, in 2023. And, yeah, and now it's being released in theatres in North America, and it's also on video-on-demand, at all the usual suspects from March 29 in 2024, is that correct?
Charlie Sadoff 01:35
That is correct.
Matthew Sherwood 01:36
Okay. Well...
Charlie Sadoff 01:37
Although, I will say let's say we've actually already - we've had a broadcast in Germany and France towards the beginning of the year. They recut the movie a little bit for audiences that might not be as aware of certain things that we took for - that, you know, we sort of take for granted in making the film for a US audience, but it was on Arte and WDR already in Europe.
Matthew Sherwood 02:08
Oh, wow okay. So, we're a UK based podcast, as our listeners should know, any chance it might be seen here anytime soon, as far as you're aware?
Charlie Sadoff 02:18
I hope so. We're always looking for additional territories to screen it and show it, so, my hope is that it will be eventually on in the UK.
Matthew Sherwood 02:27
Okay. So, we usually - first question is usually, to our filmmakers, is what is Against All Enemies all about? Maybe you can give us a little synopsis for those who haven't had a chance to check it out yet.
Charlie Sadoff 02:42 (04:53)
Well, the premise of the film is pretty simple, and we sort of start the film with a question, which is, why would US military veterans take up arms against the country they had sworn an oath to protect? And that derives, obviously, from what happened on January 6, where there were a number of veterans who were part of that insurrection, and who made it more potent because of their military training. And so, the film seeks to answer that question. And as we go, as filmmaker, as I was trying to answer that question it led to more questions...
Matthew Sherwood 03:20
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 03:20
... and different threads that I didn't necessarily anticipate when we originally started. And so, the film essentially gets into the history of veterans in the United States becoming part of insurrectionist causes beginning with the KKK, leading up through to today where we have groups called - groups like the Proud Boys, or the Oath Keepers, or the Three Percenters, which are violent extremist groups here in the United States. And so, we get into why veterans become part of these groups, how they're recruited, and what the impact is of them being in these groups and the danger they present. And I think it's important, you know, at the outset to say that it's a very small percentage of veterans who become part of these groups...
Matthew Sherwood 04:07
Indeed.
Charlie Sadoff 04:08
... but veterans because of their military training, and the cache that they hold in the United States, have an outsize impact on them. Militarily, they can be what we call force multipliers, they can make the people, the other members of the group, more effective in whatever sort of mission they take on. But also they give these groups credibility, because as I said, veterans in the United States have a lot of credibility themselves. And so, they transfer their credibility to these groups in ways that they might not otherwise have.
Matthew Sherwood 04:42 (07:01)
There's a lot to unpick there, and there's a lot that you include in your film, but maybe we can say, because keep in mind that we do have an international audience and they may not be so familiar, these extremist groups, I mean, you've already mentioned some of them, ones that have sort of internationally people have heard have like the Proud Boys, but you also include ones that I hadn't even heard of, and I'm an avid follower of US politics, but I mean, who are they? What do they want to do? What are their intentions really?
Charlie Sadoff 05:12
So, we actually have someone in the film who addresses that question head on.
Matthew Sherwood 05:17
Yeah.
Charlie Sadoff 05:17
And he says they're all different in their - sort of their - they all have differences, but essentially, what unites them all is they all want power. They want to return the United States to people that they believe are right - are rightfully in power, which are essentially white people, and probably could dig a little deeper and say, white Christian men. But that's essentially what unites them, you know, they had power: we had power, we're losing power, we want power, and we will do what is necessary to get our power back. That's what unites these groups. And that's what they want.
Matthew Sherwood 05:53
But, I mean, I guess, without getting into all the details, because people should watch the film, but, you know, there's - I guess there's all these, like, subsets and sub-genre - you know, groups, but, I mean, they're not all white supremacists, are they? I mean, there is something additionally that - if so - even if it's about not returning, I mean, I grant you, you document it well, there's a large segment of that, but it's almost there's sort of also an element of wanting to - a perceived view of America as it used to be and wanting it to - thinks it's lost its way, I guess, is that another way of kind of putting it?
Charlie Sadoff 06:35
I think that's - well, that's, you know, that's MAGA: Make America Great Again, returning to - but you have to ask yourself the question: what is it that we're returning to, and not - you're right, not everyone in these groups is a white supremacist, they're able to recruit all kinds of people into them, into their groups, but I think when, essentially when people are saying we want to return to the way things were, at the core - at their root, what they're saying is we don't want anyone other than white people in charge. And that's fueled a lot in this country by the changing demographics of America. You know, in 2040, America's - by 2040, America's going to be a minority-majority country. So, the changing demographics of the United States fuels a lot of this, a lot of the sort of fear of losing control and losing power.
Matthew Sherwood 07:30
Right. And also, I mean, there's that element also, we're in a world of, I mean, rapid change, right. So, I mean, that's, I mean, there's a lot of elements to this, I would have thought, but, you know, immigration, all kinds of things, things are changing, and I guess, I don't know the best way of putting it, there's certainly a feeling that, like you said, they want to - whatever it is, whatever they perceive, was this or what they want to return to, these are people who are willing to take arms to achieve that, isn't that - is that right?
Charlie Sadoff 08:11
Some of them, yes. And you mentioned immigration. So, there's something - there's sort of a theory espoused in the United States called The Great Replacement Theory, which sort of holds that the people in charge, Democrats, but originally it was Jews, are conspiring to let immigrants into the country so that they can overwhelm the electorate with their votes, and therefore push white people out of control, no longer have the power to win elections by replacing everyone with immigrants. So, that's the real fear of - and that's, you know, that's what, you know, white supremacists in these groups are talking about when they're talking about immigration.
Matthew Sherwood 09:03 (11:17)
Yeah. And so, as you were - then the other element of this is the question you originally started with is why US servicemen would - veterans - a small group, but would cut and leave the armed forces and then join groups that would, by their very nature, make them renege the oath they took when they joined the army, or any of the armed forces. And so, what - I mean, you do explore - what is it particularly that you think - is it related to the training they receive in the military, is it because they take this oath to protect against all enemies foreign and domestic? What's - I mean, I guess each individual is going to have their own sort of reasons but is it because it's difficult to transition to civilian life for some? We've even had a doc about that on here. I know it's very difficult for, certainly combat veterans, to transition back.
Charlie Sadoff 10:01
I think it's - you nailed it. I mean, you touched on a lot of the reasons. I mean, we'll start with the transition out of the military into civilian life, which most veterans make that transition pretty well, but a number don't. And they're looking for the sense of purpose, the sense of camaraderie, the sense of mission that they had in the military that they might not be finding anymore. And these groups can sometimes offer that. There's a group called the Oath Keepers, which was led by someone named Stewart Rhodes, who's now in jail, he got an 18 year sentence as a result of his involvement in January 6...
Matthew Sherwood 10:43
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 10:44
... and - but Stewart Rhodes is a very charismatic figure. Yale educated. And when he comes - you know, in the film, you see when he comes along, and he recruits, and he's trying to recruit people into the Oath Keepers, he has a good story to tell, he can talk about how, you know, the government is trying to take away your guns, the government has torn up the Constitution right in front of you, our cities are being attacked by Black Lives Matter. This is your chance to support the Constitution, protect your rights. And as other people in the film say it's a chance to fight again, which for a number of veterans is something that's alluring.
Matthew Sherwood 11:31
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 11:31 (13:54)
So, there's that. But as you said, there's lots of things that can recruit - that can bring people into this movement. You know, we can talk a little bit about this in greater detail later on, but there's sort of a, what's described as a salad bar grievance narrative that you can sort of exploit to get people into your cause. And this goes back to the days of the Ku Klux Klan in the United States, which was formed after the civil war here by a former veteran, a veteran of the civil war, Nathan Bedford Forrest. And the KKK was very adapted, changing its recruiting pitch depending on sort of what the issues were at any given place, at any given time. And so, now in the United States, there's lots of things that you can use to bring people in. You can be, as you said, before, anti-immigrant, you can be anti-black, anti-Jewish, any grievance narrative you can come up with: the LGBTQ are grooming our children. And of course, the Big Lie here in the United States is a big recruiting tool now. Because the idea that you served in the military to defend the country, and now you've been convinced that there's a crime family, that's the Biden crime family, is now in power when he actually stole the election, the election was stolen. So, if you can convince them that that's true, veteran or otherwise, that's a strong argument to make.
Matthew Sherwood 13:01
Yeah. And I think what your film does well, too, is what struck me was there's some different scenes, not just any one individual, but also talking about the sort of dog whistles, right, that maybe they're kind of things that pass - like, for the average person who sees - maybe comes across some of this stuff, it doesn't really mean anything, but there's this sort of messaging that comes through, that - I mean, it can go from certainly, you know, Trump's comments at the debate when he was talking, you know, talks about the Proud Boys, but there's even little things that are even harking back to, as you say, to even the very early days of - certainly the Ku Klux Klan - but this idea of a, you know, a Jewish cabal that's in charge of everything; it's just these kind of little signals that these groups have, are very good at wielding without maybe - while still kind of flying under the radar.
Charlie Sadoff 14:02 (16:13)
Yeah, one of my goals with the film after I got into it and sort of realised, for myself, what was happening, is that I wanted people to understand that as you said, these more subtle dog whistles are actually the same thing that people like Louis Beam, who's a military veteran in the film, who became the head of the Texas KKK, and used his military service as a means of recruiting people into the KKK for his cause, which was basically to overthrow the government. He was overt. He was not scared to say things that I can't even repeat here about black people or Jews. But there's a through line from him to some of the folks today and the message is the same. It's just as you said, a little bit more subtle and not as overt. But it's all part of, as I was saying before, this idea that we need to return to make sure that white people stay in power. And that means going in - and he uses the phrase 'by any means necessary'. And so, that can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. It can manifest itself as violence, it can manifest itself in trying to keep people from voting, whatever it takes. So, that's, you know, that's what I hope people understand when they see the film is that what you're referring to as these subtle dog whistles, what they're really about.
Matthew Sherwood 15:34 (17:46)
And you've in the process, you've gained some close access to some of these groups. I mean, you already mentioned the Oath Keepers. I think we've got some never before seen footage of them. And I mean, big events of the last few years where they were involved you certainly have cameras there. How did you manage that? And why are they so keen to allow you - filmmakers like yourself to tag along for these things? Are they - and, you know, how did you manage to gain that sort of access?
Charlie Sadoff 16:08
So, that Oath Keeper footage that you're referring to, that's from a scene - a lot of what we're seeing there is from a scene in Louisville...
Matthew Sherwood 16:15
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 16:16
... where they've gone to supposedly protect local businesses from rioters and looters in the aftermath of the Breonna - of the case of Breonna Taylor. And that footage was actually shot by two filmmakers who I came to know. And I actually - we actually acquired their footage from them.
Matthew Sherwood 16:41
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 16:41
... but they're the - Stewart Rhodes and the Oath Keepers, or General E who we interview [...] Three Percenters, or the Southern Patriot Council, or Randy Ireland from the Proud Boys who I interviewed, they're - to answer your question - they're perfectly happy to talk, if you can convince them that they're going to get a fair shake. I don't think - and that's what I think we were able to do is, we were able to sort of tell them, Yeah, we're gonna let you speak your mind, and we're not going to edit it to make you look any worse than, you know, you actually are. So, they are perfectly happy to talk. And they believe in what they're saying. They're not ashamed of what they have to say. They think that they're patriots. They think that they're supporting the Constitution. And so, they are happy to get their story out and they want to advocate for their positions. So, the access is - but you have to get to them, and you have to find a ways to get to them, and I had a great team who helped me get inroads and introductions.
Matthew Sherwood 17:51
I mean, did anything surprise you? Let's say your conversations with General E, which I found very interesting. Because I was born and raised in Texas, so...
Charlie Sadoff 18:00 (20:11)
Okay, yeah; you're from Texas. I was going to say, what do you think of General E?
Matthew Sherwood 18:05
What do I think of him? Well, I think he's - well, I had a conversation earlier today with someone who's got some Texas ties and he said, What am I doing tonight? And I mentioned this, and I said, Well, maybe not surprise you, there's some with a militia connection. He goes, Oh yeah, well, we kind of - I could hear him over the phone roll his eyes. So, I know this - I know there's that element there, as you mentioned; also, what was his name? Beam? who is the - you know, there's always been the Texas KKK, and, as you say, it was much more overt back when I was a kid, you know, and it was more, you know, even - I mean, I'm not making light of this whole thing but I even think back to the Blues Brothers, right, where they have the scene where they hate the, you know, I hate Illinois Nazis. I mean, they were, like, literally, you know, it was very, kind of in your face very anti-American in a different way; like, actually wearing swastikas and stuff like that, right. So, what did I think? I thought...
Charlie Sadoff 19:04
Well, as a fellow Texan.
Matthew Sherwood 19:06
Yeah. Yeah, what do I think? Well, it doesn't - because what was interesting was he was raising this point about a lot of this is because he's Texan and it's his values, right. And this values of self, you know, being able to not even so much the bootstrap stuff but just that you have to - you know, you have to defend yourself, you have to be able - that's a Texan, is someone who knows how to defend themselves. I mean, I have to say, he does remind me of, he's no longer in the family, but an ex-uncle of mine, to be honest with you! Who had very similar sort of demeanour and aspects to him. Like you said, like with the veterans, like anything, these aren't, like, a large percentage of the population, you know, or any of these things; so, I, you know, I just know these people do exist. And they're very - I guess what - so, what do I think as a Texan? I'm not like - I feel like it's kind of a - it's not even so much something very Texan, specifically; I think it's very just sort of there is always and has been and continues to be this strain of America that exists, that is susceptible to these insurrectionist groups, whether it's the original KKK, and they've had their different waves, obviously, and they've - this - and I know there's - we could have a long whole episode - could have series about does this go back to the founding of the US and, you know, and all this kind of stuff that perpetuates this feeling that, you know, people want to - who may be are misguided or a sort of self-reliance, independence run amok, basically.
Charlie Sadoff 21:00
Yeah, I mean, General E is, I found him to be fascinating. You know, he's, first of all, for film, you always sort of...
Matthew Sherwood 21:13
Well, exactly.
Charlie Sadoff 21:14
... like people who are great storytellers, and [...] great storyteller.
Matthew Sherwood 21:18
Well, he's a Texan, that is a Texan thing. We are a state of storytellers. So, I'll give you that.
Charlie Sadoff 21:25
But you'll notice we shot - we filmed him on his ranch. And he has a state of Texas flag out on - you know, hung up. And not the United States flag. So, this idea of Texas and the Texan being self-reliant, as you said, is obviously very important to him. I think what was particularly interesting about him is that he, on the one hand, he seems like this - you know, I enjoyed speaking with him; you know, I didn't feel threatened by him...
Matthew Sherwood 22:00 Right.
Charlie Sadoff 22:00
... overtly. But then you see all the other things he gets up to.
Matthew Sherwood 22:06
Yeah.
Charlie Sadoff 22:07
And not - when he wasn't interviewing me. And, you know, he's creating a hit list of people who have betrayed the country that, you know, he didn't, he said, if something happens to these people, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't shed tears.
Matthew Sherwood 22:24
Yeah.
Charlie Sadoff 22:25
So, there's two sides to him. But also, he's clearly, like, he believes what he's saying, but he's been, I think he's been led down a path of misinformation that's quite unfortunate, because his, you know, he's getting his information and his news from not necessarily the most reliable sources. And he's very much influenced by General Michael Flynn who, if your audience is familiar with him, he was a former general in the United States, the head of the - the Director of National Intelligence under the Obama administration, then he was a National Security Adviser for Trump, but he was actually then fired and then convicted of crimes dealing with having, you know, dealing with Russia and Turkey. He was convicted, and then Trump pardoned him, and ever since he left the Trump administration, he sort of been out on a rampage against everyone who sort of wronged him.
Matthew Sherwood 23:25
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 23:25
So, he was a big act - he was a very big actor in January 6, and leading up to January 6, and since then, he's gone around the country, you know, grooming and recruiting for his, what he calls his army of digital soldiers. And we have people in the film, espousing the idea that he is fomenting another insurrection against the United States, and that's his goal.
Matthew Sherwood 23:55 (26:09)
Well, then, since you've brought up again, and rightfully so, I mean, let's take this back to January 6, were you there? Because I know you've got footage that's from...
Charlie Sadoff 24:02
I was not there, but two of my associate producers were there and were inside the Capitol. And a lot of the footage in our film is from them.
Matthew Sherwood 24:12
Okay. Because what I think was, I mean, obviously, this has been - well in docs, and just generally in the news, obviously, quite a bit, but what I think what your film - this what I thought was unique, one of the things I thought was unique was that it shows very well the military precision and tactics of this. I mean, I think we all knew about these different extremist groups were involved. We also know there were people who are not in extremists groups that were there that were part of the crowd. But just the sort of, I think you even have a - it's a great way you filmed it in terms of just zeroing in, just showing that how - it's obvious these groups were planning ahead. I mean, I know someone who was there, they were filming on a different doc, and they had been going to Stop The Steal rallies in the weeks leading up to this, and they said they didn't know exactly what was gonna go down, but they knew something was gonna go down. And it does seem - so, there's - you know, people, however the mass media is dealing with it. I mean, it's obvious that there were, like, a lot of planning went into this.
Charlie Sadoff 25:28
Yeah, I mean, some of it was spontaneous, but for some of the groups, it was organised and, you know, that's why Stewart Rhodes was convicted because he and the Oath Keepers planned very far, you know, planned well out what they were going to do. And, as you said, we do have footage of the Oath Keepers, marching in formation, creating a breach, and then sort of helping everyone else get inside. And there was definitely military tactics going on there. Not just from them, but from other groups as well. And so, that's sort of, that's more or less at the beginning of the film that this was happening. So, why is this happening? And Jason Crow was a congressman in the United States. He was barricaded inside the floor of the chamber of the House, and he's a former Army Special For - a Ranger - so he was someone who served overseas, who is not prone to hyperbole and knows real violence when he sees it, and he had fought in Afghanistan.
Matthew Sherwood 26:35
Yeah.
Charlie Sadoff 26:36
And he, when they were barricaded in, he thought he was gonna have to maybe fight his way out. He calls his wife and, you know, basically says, This might be it. And there's - we have a scene where he's there and they barricaded the door. And he asks - in the film, he asked this question, How did I, a veteran, end up on one side of this door...
Matthew Sherwood 27:00
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 27:01
... and other veterans who swore the same oath that I did end up on the other side of this door? And so, that to me was a very sort of provocative question, and the fact that it was coming from him made it all the more powerful.
Matthew Sherwood 27:18
I think we'll stop there for a moment. We're gonna give our listeners and viewers a quick break and we'll be right back with Charlie Sadoff, the producer and director of Against All Enemies. Theatrical release in North America, March 29. You can also stream it on all the usual places, also, from March 29.
Factual America Midroll 27:39
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 27:57 (30:40)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Charlie Sadoff, the producer and director of Against All Enemies, releasing in the US and theatres on March 29, and you can also stream it from that same day. So, we've talked about January 26, but another thing that - January 6 - another thing you raise - I mean, kind of look at - I mean, and let me ask you, do you think January 6 could happen again? Or do you think people are being a little bit too blase about this?
Charlie Sadoff 28:36
I definitely think political violence is in the offing. So, will it be the same as January 6? Probably not, because I would hope that we're more prepared this time to prevent something like that from happening, but I'll give you an example. There's in Arizona, where the election was heavily disputed in 2020, in which - I don't know if you recall, in our film, Eric Greitens, a former Navy SEAL, who was running for - at the time that we were filming was running for Senate in Missouri, the state of Missouri, he made a huge part of his campaign, his idea that the results of the election - the election results in Arizona need to be looked at, and this is well after Jan - this is after January 6, this is well down the line. So, I sort of had my eye on Arizona and this place called Maricopa County where the most people in Arizona live...
Matthew Sherwood 29:43
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 29:44
... where the results were highly contested. And just last week, the county board of election officials were meeting and this is something that in normal times, no one would care about. These are...
Matthew Sherwood 29:58
It's like watching paint dry!
Charlie Sadoff 29:59
... you know, what they do is important, but this is like, big government stuff...
Matthew Sherwood 30:07
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 30:09
... for 100 years, they probably met and no one knew what they were meeting about, and, you know, it's, you know, they just went about doing their business. And at the last meeting of this board in Maricopa County, they had to have armed police, SWAT teams, special rules put in place because they're so afraid that these elected officials, many of whom are Republican, by the way, it's not just Democrats, lives are in danger, because of what they're doing now, in terms of the elec - in terms of getting ready for the election and getting ready for what's going to happen in 2024 in November. So, the fact that this local Board of Elections needs full time security, doesn't speak well for what's going to happen later on down the line. And this is going to be happening all over the country. And so, I think that the possibility of violence breaking out in small pockets or in various places is very legitimate. I don't know that we're going to see something like Jan - like a march on the Capitol again...
Matthew Sherwood 31:30
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 31:31
... but I think there will be smaller, more smaller events. And fortunately, on January 6, there were no guns involved, but as your audience probably knows, there's 400 million guns in the United States and 300 million people...
Matthew Sherwood 31:48
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 31:48
... and so, the real fear is that some of these turn really violent. And it's not just breaking down doors of the Capitol and using the US flag to beat up police officers.
Matthew Sherwood 32:04 (34:15)
And so, then, what about - because some of this talk's died down a bit. It was really big in certain circles not long ago, but even this talk about a civil war in the US, a renewed civil war - I mean, do you think that is - is that something that you're still worried about? Because your film does talk about it.
Charlie Sadoff 32:28
Yeah, I think - so, the civil war, if there is one, it's not going to be like we had in the 1800s: two standing armies going against each other, and it's not going to be 1000s of militia trying to take on the US government, you know, the US military or National Guard, or - that's not how they're going to operate, it's going to be more of an insurgency. Think about, you know, other places around the world where less powerful forces have used terrorism, or select strikes, to try and, you know, make their point, intimidate people, terrorise people, too. And then basically, to create chaos. And so, I think that's more likely what we're going to be seeing if we see violence.
Matthew Sherwood 33:25 (35:37)
Okay. So, I want to try to end this on a more hopeful note, but I think we're gonna, I think we will get there actually. But before we get to that point, I mean, how did you - I mean, how did you become involved with this project? Was this your idea? In terms of making this film.
Charlie Sadoff 33:46
My co-producer Ken Harbaugh's a Navy veteran, and he and I have known each other for a number of years, and after January 6, when he saw what we all saw, but he saw it through a slightly different lens. The first thing he noticed was what you talked about, and we've talked about previously, is, like, military veterans being a part of this...
Matthew Sherwood 34:09
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 34:10
... and so, when he - he was the impetus for the film because he wanted to get to the bottom of why this was happening, and what it meant. And so, Ken came to me with the project and then we went from there.
Matthew Sherwood 34:24
Okay, and you've got quite a team; you know, it's not just him, you've got others on the team that are all, like - you've got veterans, you've got Sebastian Junger's did Restrepo. I mean, you've got a lot of people involved with this. And this, I think, Veterans For Responsible Leadership, are they, you know, involved; does that - I mean, so, I guess getting to this point of the questions you've raised and your film tries to answer, maybe what has been the reaction to the film, so far, for those who've had a chance to see it, Capitol Hill, in Washington, wider America.
Charlie Sadoff 35:07 (37:18)
Yeah, I mean, I think the film's gotten very - it's been very well received. I mean, it's not a film that people say 'like' the film. But I will say this, there's some funny moments in it. I mean, General E has his moments. There's little moments like that. So, the film has gotten a very positive reception. We were at Tribeca, like you said - did you want to say something?
Matthew Sherwood 35:33
No, I was just gonna - I did like the bit where he's standing there in front of the State Capitol in Austin, and he tells this guy next to him to knock it off with the F bombs, you know, that was like, you know - you know, and I've got, you know, I mean, I'm from Texas, I have a bit of a soft heart for General E. So, yeah, I do recognise how he is filmmaker gold in a lot of way. But yes, but I'll let you continue.
Charlie Sadoff 35:54
Yeah, the film. So, it's been very well received at various festivals. We were actually at a film festival in Poland, where we won the Audience Award for Best Doc, and the reason I mentioned that is because it happened - the film happened to be screening right at the time where they had just had their elections.
Matthew Sherwood 36:12
That's right.
Charlie Sadoff 36:13
And it was a, you know, it was a really, you know, a remarkable event there, where the Democratic Party was - it was not thought possible that they were going to be able to pull that off, and they won. And when I was there, they hadn't had the official transfer of power yet. And...
Matthew Sherwood 36:37
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 36:39
There was still this talk of, oh, the, you know, the same thing we hear, the election was stolen, it was rigged and sort of thought like - I think people sort of were convinced, hopefully convinced, that power would transition peacefully, eventually it did. So, the film really resonated over there. And like I told you earlier, it's actually very popular in Europe, because I think - I don't know if it's because Europeans like to look at the United States and see how messed up we are...
Matthew Sherwood 37:13
There's an element of that.
Charlie Sadoff 37:15
... but also, I think, this idea that where we're headed is something that Europeans in some ways have a little bit more experience with, and maybe are more attuned to it than in some ways the United States is.
Matthew Sherwood 37:32
Well, I think that does get - I mean, there are like - I think something that your film also talks about is how there aren't these - you've got these laws, or if not even laws, policies that are about foreign terrorism, but not about domestic terrorism, whereas you definitely in Europe have - certainly Germany's got them and others - who have laws against domestic - because they have their - I mean, go back to the 70s, right, 70s, and all the Red Brigade and all those domestic terrorism organisations they had, so they had to fight terrorism back in the day. And so, they did put things in place to more effectively deal with it.
Charlie Sadoff 38:13
Yeah, I think, you know, we talk a little bit about this in the film. You mentioned Red Brigade, the United States has dealt with, you know, fascism and communism before. And as is pointed out in the film by a guy named Michael Breen, we did a pretty good job of combating that in the United States because it was sort of a universal effort, for the government, at least. The government was able to unify around messages, you know, pushing back against the propaganda of Nazism, pushing back against the propaganda of communism. And we can't do that now, because the government, it's not unified in that message. There's one party, the Democratic Party, that is pushing back against it, and the Republican Party for a large part is embracing it. So, it's very difficult to push back against the misinformation.
Matthew Sherwood 39:10 (41:21)
And so, back to our question about why veterans, the one you pose, but why veterans join these groups - a small number, but they do and they, as you said - the other thing that kept coming to mind in a lot of this footage, is just how, you know, I hadn't maybe quite - I think I've always personally - some of these groups I always just felt like they're a ragtag group and I guess in some ways, they are, but they do have - it was much more militaristic than I realised, I think in some of the footage you have, certainly of Oath Keepers and others, and as you document with January 6, but what do you think some of the solutions are for veterans so that, you know, do they need more support? Do they need change? Do we need to change how military personnel are trained when they're in the army. What do you think some of the solutions are?
Charlie Sadoff 40:08
Okay, I'll get to that in a second. But I want to address your first point first, which is that these are ragtag groups, which I, you know, I thought some of that too. I think a lot of people in the United States think that. And so, I pose that question to a gentleman named Ali Soufan who used to work for the FBI, and was involved in investigating 9/11 and in counterterrorism. And I said, you know, a lot of people think these groups are like - basically saying - might have even used your words, rag tag, he said, Yeah, he said, a lot of people think these groups are knuckleheads. But we thought the same thing about the Taliban...
Matthew Sherwood 40:48
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 40:49
... they're holed up in caves in Afghanistan, they can't do anything. They're not a real threat. And then 9/11 happened and everyone changed their mind, obviously realised that wasn't the case. And that's how Ali Soufan views these groups, that they are a real threat. And that if we don't take them seriously, we're risking quite a bit in much the same way that we didn't pay attention enough before 9/11. To answer your second question, what do we do? How do veterans get out of this, is kind of tricky, because one of the veterans whose story we follow throughout, Kris Goldsmith...
Matthew Sherwood 41:29
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 41:30
... you remember, he was someone who was part of these groups, or who was sort of sucked into this world, after he came back from his service in Iraq, and was consumed by conspiracy theories. And what got him out was he actually went to a junior college, a community college, met other people who had a different view than he did, where he could actually talk to them, and he sort of came around, and he came out of this bubble. And the problem now is that you don't have to come out of your bubble.
Matthew Sherwood 42:03
We're so atomised.
Charlie Sadoff 42:04
Yeah. And so General E, he lives on his ranch, right...
Matthew Sherwood 42:07
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 42:08
... he's getting all of his news from YouTube...
Matthew Sherwood 42:12
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 42:12
... or whatever Michael Flynn has to be saying...
Matthew Sherwood 42:14
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 42:15
... I don't know that he's exposed to people who have a different worldview, who can sort of maybe engage with him to help shake him out of this. So, in that respect, I'm not very hopeful, but if there are - one of the reasons we made the film is so that if people see the film, who know veterans who are like this or are susceptible to this, that they talk to them. And there's also lots of groups that veterans can be part of, that aren't oriented around overthrowing the government.
Matthew Sherwood 42:46
Right.
Charlie Sadoff 42:47
... there's groups like Team Rubicon here in the United States that trains veterans to be first responders to natural disasters, and they've trained 100,000 veterans so far.
Matthew Sherwood 42:58
Oh, wow.
Charlie Sadoff 42:58
Lots of other groups like that, that give veterans that same sort of sense of camaraderie and purpose, but around, you know, really positive things. And so, the hope is that more veterans go that way than the other way. You mentioned the transition out of the military. I mean, that's a huge thing. There's called TAP: the Transition Assistance Programme. I think, you know, if the military, the US military, could, you know, work on that to help veterans transition better and easier and give them a little bit more information that would certainly be helpful, but that cuts across more than just what we're talking about; that cuts around health care and jobs and all kinds of things. It's a real issue that needs to be addressed, but it hasn't. So, that's where we are.
Matthew Sherwood 43:52
Yeah. I think - I mean, back to the - I forget his name, but the guy you mentioned; is it Nassau County? But the guy who's like...
Charlie Sadoff 43:58
Kris Goldsmith.
Matthew Sherwood 43:58
Kris Goldsmith, yeah. So, he makes that comment; I was like - I think I picked up on - what I picked up on and I forget the exact quote, but I think you're alluding, more than alluding to it here as well, but he said, Well, at least then I had someone, you know, there were people I could talk to, or people reached out to me. I was wearing my hoodie and acting a certain way and people then started talking with me. It's not just veterans that's what ails society, isn't it? We're not - I mean, not to say it's just as easy as it's because of smartphones and everything and social media but we are not engaging with each other. We're not talking to each other. I think we're all kind of becoming so in our little bubbles and echo chambers that it's making this very, very difficult, isn't it?
Charlie Sadoff 44:49
It is. I mean, you use the word 'atomise', which I think is a good one. And it does - it makes solving this problem but lots of other problems more difficult for sure. There's no denying that.
Matthew Sherwood 45:05
Well, I think we're coming, actually, to the end of our time together, Charlie, but just a few questions - a few more questions, if I may. Am I right, is this your first director credit?
Charlie Sadoff 45:16 (47:27)
This is the first feature length film I've directed. I've directed a number of short films. I've produced, written, and edited a number of documentaries in the past, but this was my first - this is my directorial debut.
Matthew Sherwood 45:28
Directorial debut. So, why did you choose this one? What was special about this one that you said, No, this is the one where I want to, I want to direct this.
Charlie Sadoff 45:37
Well, I guess Ken came to me and - I spent a number of years working on various military veteran programmes for TV networks, around what we call here, pro-social movements. And I was helping, you know, I was working on campaigns aimed at helping veterans around health care and helping veterans around getting jobs. So, I felt like I knew the subject pretty well, I come from a military family. So, I felt like I had a good grasp of sort of where to begin, and how to talk to veterans. I had a lot of experience with that over the years. So, I think that's what sort of led me to say, Yeah, I think this is one that I can direct.
Matthew Sherwood 46:23
Yeah. Well, and then I assume you'll direct some more. What's next for you? Can you say anything about any projects that are in the works?
Charlie Sadoff 46:32
Sure, right now I am co-directing a feature doc, totally different subject matter, about kids in Washington, DC, who are debaters. And, you know, now that you mentioned that, now that I talk about it based on what you just said before about us not talking to each other it is, it's sort of like - it's the antidote to this problem, in that these kids have to learn how to debate both sides of a subject. And listen to other people's arguments, take the other side, if necessary, but it's all about talking and interacting with their teammates, and then also with people they're debating against. And so, in that way, it is related, but it's an interesting subject.
Matthew Sherwood 47:23
Okay. And when is that - do you know when that's going to be coming out?
Charlie Sadoff 47:27
Well, we're still shooting. So, it's gonna be a while.
Matthew Sherwood 47:29
So, it's got a little ways to go. But, all right; well, we look forward to seeing it. And I just want to thank you again for joining us here on Factual America. Just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with Charlie Sadoff, the producer and director of Against All Enemies, theatrical release in North America on March 29, and you can also start streaming it on that day, too. So, Charlie, thanks again. We'd love to have you on again sometime. And thanks.
Charlie Sadoff 47:54
Great. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
Matthew Sherwood 48:02
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 48:43
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