Becoming Rocky: How Sylvester Stallone Became a Star

In 1976, Sylvester Stallone was a struggling actor with a big dream and the courage of his convictions. That dream became Rocky, one of the most iconic films of all time.

Using home movies shot mostly by the director John Avildsen, director and producer Derek Wayne Johnson perfectly captures the moment when Sylvester Stallone became a superstar.

40 Years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it is known in the USA and Canada, or Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it is known everywhere else, reminds us that while Sylvester Stallone is known for a lot of things, consummate filmmaker should be first among them.

We caught up recently with Derek from East Texas. Not only does he give us insights on what it is like to work closely with Sylvester Stallone, but we learn how he too has chased his own dreams to success in Hollywood.

"I think he's a genius and I stand by that. Because this is a guy who is not only a wonderful actor, but also wonderful writer who writes from the heart, which is very rare." - Derek Wayne Johnson

Time Stamps:

2:02 - Introducing our guest and what we are talking about today.
4:15 - Where people can watch 40 Years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic.
5:50 - What it is like working with Sylvester Stallone.
7:20 - What the film is about, which footage was used, and who was involved in the production. 9:20 - How the idea came for making the film came about.
14:30 - Why we have a wrong impression of Sylvester Stallone based on his most famous roles.
18:51 - How Sylvester Stallone did the narrated commentary in one take.
21:01 - The story of how the ice rink scene in Rocky was shot.
26:05 - How Derek became the documentarian for Sly Stallone and his family.
28:05 - What inspired Derek to become a filmmaker.
31:05 - The family storytelling tradition that still exists in Texas.
33:00 - The story of how Derek got into documentaries.
38:00 - What Derek’s other film, Stallone: Frank, That Is, is about.
41:00 - How the Coronavirus pushed back the release of Stallone: Frank, That Is.
43:31 - What is so special about the musicians of Frank Stallone’s and the doo-wop generation.
47:00 - How the film industry is changing in the COVID-19 environment.
49:00 - What Derek’s next documentary is about.

Resources:

40 Years Of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic (2020)
Follow the film on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter
Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic (2020)
Follow the film on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter
18 Best Movies to Watch on Netflix in 2022
Rocky Movies (IMDb)
Cinema 83 Entertainment
John G. Avildsen: King of the Underdogs (2017)
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Derek Wayne Johnson:

Facebook
Twitter
Instagram

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 21 - Becoming Rocky: How Sylvester Stallone Became a Star

0:00
I am Derek Johnson. I'm the director, writer, producer of 40 Years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it's known in the US and Canada, and Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it's known in the rest of the world.

0:21
It's early in the morning on the streets of Philadelphia, it's freezing cold. I just started to feel something dwelling inside. They go, Sly, are you ready to go? I'm not but Rocky is.

You're a very lucky person when you could find out that the best friend you ever had is some character that just popped out of your mind. Someone who was always there when things got rough and never quit on you.

1:14
That is the trailer for the new documentary about Sylvester Stallone and the making of his iconic film Rocky. And this is Factual America.

1:25
Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.

2:02
In 1976, Sylvester Stallone was a struggling actor with the big dream and the courage of his convictions. That dream became Rocky, one of the most iconic films of all time. Using home movies shot mostly by the director John Avildsen, director and producer Derek Wayne Johnson perfectly captures the moment when Sylvester Stallone became a superstar. 40 years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it is known in the USA and Canada, or Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it is known everywhere else, reminds us that while Sylvester Stallone is known for a lot of things, consummate filmmaker should be first among them. We caught up recently with Derek from East Texas. Not only does he give us insights on what it is like to work closely with Sylvester Stallone, but we learn how he too has chased his own dreams to success in Hollywood. Derek Wayne Johnson, welcome to Factual America.

3:00
Hey, thanks for having me.

3:01
Hey, so I understand you're in Texas. How are things there? I know it's been a bit hairy the last few weeks from what we're hearing.

3:09
Yeah, the the cases of COVID-19 are spiking here, but I'm in the country. So I'm kind of away from the madness, I guess. But you know, it's better than being in Los Angeles right now. Where I've been for the past six years. I kind of dodged the whole COVID thing.

3:30
Yeah, it's, I guess it's mostly like the urban areas but you're in East Texas. Is that right?

3:35
Right. I'm in the piney woods of East Texas with all the pine trees. Yeah.

3:41
Sounds like a good place to ride out the storm.

3:44
Absolutely.

3:45
Yeah. Hey, so as we've heard, and heard the trailer and you've introduced the film we're talking about is 40 years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it's known in the USA and Canada. And for all our other listeners, Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic. However you call it, it's narrated by Sylvester Stallone, and was best short documentary at the 2020 Beverly Hills Film Festival, back when we used to go to film festivals, I guess. So, where can people watch this film? Where is it available?

4:19
Well, in the US and Canada, it's available on iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, you know, all of the standard digital platforms. And everywhere else in the world, it will be available on all of the standard digital platforms. But for now, if you're outside of the US and Canada, you can see it at becomingrocky.com, and there's actually different languages for subtitles and whatnot. So, it covers a lot of ground as far as the worldwide fans, I think that more than likely, you'll get to see it, at least with subtitles in your language, whatever that language might be. It's a worldwide platform and a lot of people are really, really digging it so far.

5:07
Okay, excellent. And any idea, if they want to go more traditional VOD, do you know what time that's gonna be available internationally.

5:18
So after becomingrocky.com, it will be available in July, this month, on VOD platforms around the world. It just kind of, for whatever reason, it came out later on VOD outside of the US and Canada, which you know, it sucks for the fans that want to see it right then and there but that's why we created becomingrocky.com so people can see it.

5:43
Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Well then head on to becomingrocky.com if you haven't already done so. Before we start talking about this film, I mean, what I've been eager to ask you is what is it like working with Sylvester Stallone? That must be amazing.

6:02
Quite amazing. He's, he's an astonishing guy. And, you know, I've worked with him on three different documentaries now. And we've become friends. And he's just a really cool talented wealth of knowledge, I guess. The conversations that we have on set when I'm working with him on these three different documentaries, are just astonishing. He's very laid back and he just knows his stuff. And it's funny because the three times I've worked with him, each time got more, I guess, personal or personable. And it became just kind of like a hang. So the first time I worked with him, it was very professional setting. Very, you know, by the book. Second time was just really laid back and then the third time was even more laid back. So it's just a joy working with him and getting to know him and his family. And he's just been a wonderful mentor to me and I'm just very, very thankful.

7:06
I mean, that sounds really cool. For those who haven't seen the film, it's a 30 minute short. But it's a fast moving 30 minutes and you pack a lot in there, I would say. But why don't you tell us what this film is about?

7:20
Well, it's about the making of the original Rocky. I think a lot of people, when they went into it, they thought that it was going to cover the whole series. And I think that they felt it may have been longer, but we really just set out to do the short doc based on these home movies that John Avildsen, the director of Rocky and Lloyd Kaufman, the production manager of Rocky, had. They had all this eight millimeter footage, most of which has been seen, some of which has never been seen until this documentary and it's basically Sylvester narrating. Or more like it's kinda like a commentary actually. Because it's not scripted narration, walking us through the making of this film. And it's just a sweet, genuine, charming little, little piece of film history, I think.

8:15
And is it true? Some of this footage wasn't found till recently?

8:18
Yeah. So about, I don't know, several years ago. The story goes that Lloyd Kaufman and his team at Troma Entertainment, found some of this eight millimeter footage in their vault that had just been sitting there and they actually put it on the latest Rocky blu-ray. And then, of course, John Avildsen had hours and hours and hours of footage that he gave me for his documentary that I directed - King of the Underdogs. Well, he had so much footage that we couldn't use and then, even for this documentary, there's still so much more footage that wasn't used. So there's still footage out there. But we had to condense it down to 30 minutes. And yeah, it's just, people still can't believe that there's still footage out there that I didn't use.

9:16
Well, it's, I mean, with Sylvester Stallone, why did he want to make this film? Was it his idea to make this?

9:23
So it's a really cool story. I directed John G. Avildsen: King of the Underdogs about the director of Rocky, who was a friend and mentor. And obviously Sly was in it. And about a year later, I went to a dinner with mutual friends and Frank Stallone was going to be there. So I never met Frank, although I worked with his brother and ran into his brother from time to time. But since I knew Frank was going to be there, I had this footage of Frank and Sly sparring on the set of Rocky that John Avildsen had. I said - John, I'm going to a dinner. Frank Stallone will be there. Is it okay if I show him this footage on my phone? He goes, absolutely. So we get there. And I'm like, Frank, this is who I am and I've got something to show you. So I hold up my phone, and it's this footage he had never seen. He almost wept. He got really emotional. And therefore Frank and I just hit it off. Well, he told Sly - hey, you're in this documentary and they're using footage that we've never seen. So Sly says ask Derek to put a couple of hours of it together for me on a blu-ray if John is cool with that. So I did. A year after that, now I'm buddies with Frank, Sly invites myself and my producing partner Chris May and Frank to Sly's house to watch King of the Underdogs. Okay. So, he watches it. He loves it and, as soon as the credits roll, Sly leans into his chair and he goes - guys, I have an idea. I want you to take John Avildsen's home movies, cut it together, I'll narrate it for you and we have another documentary. What do you say? And we were like, of course. Yes, we're in. And that's how it came about. It was totally Sly's idea. And John was on board but unfortunately passed away and didn't get to be a part of it, but he did give us his blessing for the footage.

11:36
Okay. And so that was my question, because if you get on places like Wikipedia and IMDb they say Sly handpicked you to do this. But this is how, this is how it all came about. It was the John Avildsen doc led to this discussion, to this evening at Sly Stallone's house.

11:56
Right. And I guess handpicked is more like came up with the idea on the moment. And what's interesting about that is - we're there to show him King of the Underdogs that he's in. He comes up with the idea for 40 years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic. But we were going to tell him that night that we're also going to do a documentary on Frank. But because Sly came up with the idea for this documentary, Frank decided not to tell him that night, because he didn't want to like, you know. So, Frank told him about a week later, by the way, they're also doing a doc on me. I just thought that was so funny.

12:39
Well, since you brought it up, what was Sly's reaction to Frank, telling him that you're also making a documentary about Frank?

12:46
Oh, he was so excited for his brother. And he was like, he was like, yeah, that's awesome. You deserve it. Let's do it. And it was just this crazy, it's fun watching those two brothers together. They're just funny, they're just funny guys.

13:03
I think that's, we'll talk a little bit more about that after the break, the Frank Stallone movie. And just in case people don't know out there, our listeners, Frank Stallone is Sly Stallone's brother and that's a, that's a feature length documentary unto itself. But back to this short about the, essentially, the making of Rocky. I mean, I think the story you just mentioned too about him seeing this film and then immediately having an idea. What, I rightly or wrongly, you know, I probably had the wrong impression about Sylvester Stallone. And maybe it's not unfair to say that a lot of us think of him as being Rocky or Rambo or these type of people. But what came out and what really struck me the most about this 30 minutes was how very intelligent he is and how eloquent he is. And, I mean, the term that keeps coming up, in my mind is the consummate filmmaker. And I never would have thought, for whatever reason, all the stuff we've had in the media and everything about him over the years, I've never really thought of him that way. What would you say to that?

14:19
Well, you're totally correct. I mean, think about it. Over 40 years ago, all of a sudden, we're graced with "hey yo... Rocky Balboa". And it sticks. And then it's John Rambo. And, you know, it's not like he's doing Shakespeare here. But that's what's so incredible about him, you're totally right. He's very well read, well educated. I think he's a genius and I stand by that. Because this is a guy who is not only a wonderful actor, especially when utilized appropriately aka Rocky. A wonderful writer who writes from the heart, which is very rare. He's not trying to be an intellectual when he writes, he's writing stories for mass appeal. And he's also a wonderful director. He edits, he can shoot, he can do it all. As a matter of fact, a testament to what you're saying - sometimes when I was sitting with him and whatnot, and he would give advice, it was like, Oh, my gosh, is this Orson Welles talking? I mean that, in the best compliment possible. The way that he would talk and give me notes, things it was like - man, he really, really knows his stuff. But he also knows how to be a man of the people. And he knows how to be approachable and he knows how to work a crowd. But he's so intelligent. And so I think a captivating filmmaker. And he has three major franchises. It's insane.

16:01
Yeah. And I think, you just reminded me of some of these other scenes from the short. I mean, the hours they spent choreographing, not really, because he had a choreographer who didn't know what he was doing really, but about the whole boxing scenes. They spent all this time, you know, making sure that it would look as realistic as possible. Realistic and also dramatic, obviously, you know, to sell the film. But, I mean, you know, it wasn't just hey, yo, let's just show up and start whaling on each other. I mean, he and Carl Weathers must have spent hours in the gym just getting this all sorted out.

16:40
Yes, they spent months and they really, between John Avildsen, Carl and Sly, they really knew that they wanted to do something different. And you see in the documentary, if you remember, when you watched it, I utilize a lot of the sparring, a lot of the boxing choreography footage. Not only because there's a lot of it that I had available to me, but I wanted to show the audience how hard they really worked. Because let's be honest, all these years people were like, Oh, the boxing and Rocky's so fake and so overdramatic and no one knows how to, you know, be defensive, and they just get hit. Have you ever seen a boxing match? You don't want a real boxing match in that movie. It would be boring. That'd be like doing, it'd be like having a jujitsu fight as the climax of a film. Jujitsu is awesome, but it's not, you know what I'm saying? So I really wanted to show that. And show how hard they worked on it. And I didn't know until Sly was narrating it that they, that the original choreographer quit. I was just like, stunned at that. And from then on out, they just kind of worked together as a small little team. And came up with these fight scenes that, if you look in the documentary, you know, we did some side by side comparisons to show how precise they were in their choreography.

18:22
Yeah, I think you've also raised the point earlier and then I want to talk about a specific scene in your film, but the narration. You said previously, I think that was either, it was sort of off-the-cuff or ad-libbed, wasn't it? How did that work? Did you just sit Sly down and say, here's the film. This is what I want to show. I want you to narrate it. How did, how did that side of it work?

18:51
Well, a couple of things on that. One of the best comments that I've heard a fan or critic, I can't remember who said, was it feels like you're just sitting in Sly's living room, watching the lights flicker. And it's like, actually, yeah. So that is kind of what happened. I asked Sly, I was like, do you want me to script it out? Write it out. He said, no, no, no, I got this, I got this. So as the director, as the writer, as the editor, as the producer, that makes me kind of nervous, right? So what I did was is I wrote out an outline for myself, and I wrote out notes for him. And I sent him the notes the night before. When we got there to his house, we were just in his man cave with a big screen and we're just hanging out, it's kind of like a bar. And he did it all in one take.

19:48
That's what it sounds like, actually.

19:49
It sounds like it and it's so organic. And I'm looking down, I have my headphones on, I'm looking down, and he's hitting every note.

19:58
Amazing.

19:59
To this day I don't know if he actually read my notes the night before, but he was hitting every note, he was marking them out as we went. But there's two things. He did give me an intro and an outro. I don't know if outro is a word.

20:14
We use it.

20:15
You use it? Okay. He did give me that. That way I could bookend it. I would know where I'm starting where I'm ending. He did do that for me. And it was one take. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

20:28
That's amazing. One last thing, I think, maybe I've even mentioned well, specific scene. I think, for me, at least, it highlighted how he is this consummate filmmaker. And it's the scene in the film Rocky, where he's supposed to, you know, he's running this on a budget. He shows up at the ice rink, and basically supposed to be filming this in front of 300 plus extras. And maybe you can talk to us about what happened then?

21:01
Absolutely. So, so they get there and John Avildsen is told - we don't have any extras. And he goes why? And they're like, well we don't have it in the budget. So well at first that scene actually was going to be written where they're just kind of sitting down, I believe in like a cafe or something. And as John Avildsen said, it was pretty boring. And so they came up with the ice rink scene, but they couldn't afford the extras. And in that scene, you'll find in the doc, you know, Sly talks about how he gets jealous of this skater who's like, showing off or whatever, and I guess Adrian is taken by him or whatever. And there's like this whole world around this ice rink, but because they couldn't afford it, they had to think on their feet. So John Avildsen said, wait a second, how about it's closed, but they have their date anyway. So Sly went and rewrote the scene to fit that. And one of the most charming romantic movie dates in history was born. So it kind of just goes to show you that this movie is probably better because they didn't have a big budget. They had to think on their feet and Sly and John, they had this connection where they could kind of read each other. And if one of them had an idea, they wouldn't shoot each other down. They would go with it. And lo and behold the ice rink scene.

22:34
Yeah, I think it's, as you say it, it's interesting. You rightfully bring up the director John Avildsen as well and this sort of partnership they had but, you know, you've also got Stallone there just writing there off-the-cuff. Just had to write a whole new scene, without any warning or anything. It's quite amazing. Derek, we call it, the American title is 40 years of Rocky but shouldn't this be 44 years of Rocky? I think there's a story here. What's happened and why is it been delayed till now?

23:06
So, the night that I was handpicked by Sylvester, that was 2016. It was September 2016. And that was the 40th year of Rocky. As a matter of fact, it would have been December of 2016 was the 40th anniversary. So naturally, he came up with the title, we got the artwork going, we got the paperwork going, we had this thing going, but for many, many, many, many reasons, we got held up for a couple of years. Well, we already had copyrights and all sorts of stuff. And we just thought - what the heck, it's already established as 40 years of Rocky, so we kept the name. Well, when we get our foreign distributor, they're like, no, no, no, we're gonna change the name. It's Becoming Rocky: The Birth of Classic. And you know a lot of people kind of give me a jab. No pun intended on that. But it was like, if they only knew what it took to get this thing out there. Gosh, changing the name would have been horrendous. The paperwork.

24:22
Yeah, yeah. So well it doesn't, it hasn't affected the great reviews or anything like that. And I mean, I think Stallone has a history of these films that had different names and different locales. I'm reminded of, actually, I've just thought of this, in his filmography. He's got the film where he played the goalkeeper in the POW camp, was that Victory, isn't it? Yeah. And in this country, it's known as Escape to Victory. I don't know why they had to have another title but there we go. Well, actually that takes us to the break. So, for our listeners to maybe go grab a coffee or their favorite beverage and we'll be right back with Derek Wayne Johnson.

25:18
You're listening to Factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

25:38
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Derek Wayne Johnson, the director, producer, writer and editor of 40 years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it's known in the USA and Canada, and Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it's known everywhere else. So Derek, how did a kid from Carthage, Texas become the unofficial or official documentarian for Sly Stallone and his family.

26:05
Wow. Well, I've been a huge Stallone fan my whole life. And Rocky is my favorite movie. Well, it ties for first with The Karate Kid, which is how I got into this world in the first place - John Avildsen who directed both of those films. And so, I don't know, it was just one thing after the other when I befriended John and made the doc on him. Naturally Sly was in it. And as you know, I met Frank. Decided to do a doc on Frank. That was actually my producing partner who's from the UK, Emmett James came up with the idea to do the documentary on Frank. And then that led to the Rocky documentary. So, it's just kind of like this weird unofficial Stallonesque Rockiesque trilogy, that I never really set out to do. As a matter of fact, I do feature films, but I wouldn't change it for the world. The Stallones have been really good to me. And, you know, I had dreams as a kid from Carthage, Texas, which is in the middle of nowhere in East Texas. And those films inspired me to, to go for it. And I got to meet my heroes. And and here we are.

27:27
I mean, I think actually, because, typical me, I don't even think I phrased that correctly. And it's extremely interesting. But I'm even thinking, even going further back. How did you get from Carthage, Texas, to Hollywood? I mean, is it just as simple as pursuing a dream? And that, you know, and you got there. What inspired you as a child, in terms of getting into filmmaking and then pursuing this path that you've taken, that's taking you to the sofa in Sylvester Stallone's man cave watching a documentary?

28:05
Well, you know, my earliest memories are movies, or have to do with movies. I've just been a fan of film my whole life. And storytelling. And so I knew quite early, quite early that I wanted to make movies. But again, how does a kid from the middle of nowhere in East Texas do that. I come from a family where storytelling was very, very strong. And it kind of inspired me. So you take that like hearing stories from my grandparents than passing down stories to us. Then you take, you know, rental stores, and cable and VHS and all these things. But I can tell you another profound moment. I was three years old. And I remember the first movie I saw in the cinema that I could remember, like at the movie theater, was The Karate Kid Part Two. And I don't know, just something stuck with me and I just wanted to make movies. Well, I went to film school, just 45 minutes away from where I'm from. At a university called Stephen F. Austin State University. They have a wonderful film school.

29:19
Lumberjacks.

29:20
Lumberjacks. You're from Texas, you know that. And what was interesting and very, very sad, very bittersweet was my senior year of film school at Stephen F. Austin. Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans. So everything that Hollywood was shooting there needed to relocate, so they relocated to Shreveport, Louisiana upstate, which was only an hour and a half from me. So I got my foot in the door. I got an agent. I was an actor at the time as well. I thought I was Orson Welles. I started working on Hollywood movies and Hollywood TV shows in my backyard. And from there, I did all that in my 20s, I moved to Hollywood at 30. And it was kind of like this bittersweet thing. But, you know, there was a really good film renaissance in Shreveport, Louisiana for about 10 years.

30:28
That's amazing. I didn't know that. I mean, it makes sense, given unfortunately what happened with Katrina. And I mean, you've brought up a few points there that are very interesting. I mean, I think the storytelling element. I know a lot of cultures have this in lots of parts the United States. But, it does remind me of my childhood in Texas. Well, we texans like to tell tall tales basically. But there's a lot of that, isn't it? I mean, that's kind of a, there's something very uniquely texan about that, I would say.

31:02
Absolutely. And you being from Texas, you know, again, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's like an oral tradition. Because, and also, now everyone has a phone and internet, all that stuff. But, you know, when you're young, I guess my generation had VHS tapes and Nintendo. And then storytime, storytelling, read, you know. Being around family at a table and hearing stories get passed down. It was very sweet. I'm glad that I grew up like that. Because nowadays at the dinner table, at family reunions, all of the kids are on their phone in the corner while the adults talk. So, yeah, there's something about the South. Something about rural area where, if you have an artistic creative mind, all you have is all the time in the world to express that, as opposed to being in the city. And I think that had a lot to do with it as well.

32:10
And then, as you said, you do feature films, you're acting. How did you get into documentaries?

32:16
Well, you know, I always say this goofy thing, so I'll just say it. But when I was a kid, I wanted to be Indiana Jones. When I was an actor, I wanted to play Indiana Jones. But then when I realized all along, I wanted to be the guy that made Indiana Jones. So that's kind of how I explain my evolution. Yeah, I was an actor and I stopped acting probably 10 years ago or so. It was great because it got my foot in the door. And I got to express a lot as an artist, get a lot of emotions out and whatnot. But feature films was always where it was at for me. Well, I never intended to do documentaries. But I started watching documentaries a lot. About 10 years ago. There were some really good ones like The Kid Stays in the Picture, His way - the Jerry Weintraub doc, I Knew It Was You: Rediscovering John Cazale. Those are like really cool docs and I was like, something's happening here. Like, documentaries are getting really cool and really sophisticated. So when I befriended John Avildsen, I actually offered him a couple of scripts to direct, because like, this is my hero. The first script, I sent him and he said, he goes - look, kid, I get a lot of scripts, all right. Send me the script and a check for $1,000. If I like it, I'll direct it. If I don't, for $1,000 you got my word that I will script doctor each page for you and make it better. I sent him a check for $1,000 and the script. Well, two weeks later, he calls me. This is like Elvis Presley calling me. This is like, just like Michael Jordan calling me. And he goes, Derek, get a pen and paper ready. Your script sucks. Let's talk about it. And for few hours or 45 minutes, he went over my script on the phone, then mailed it back to me with handwritten notes. The second time I offered him the script to direct, I flew out to California, I wasn't living there yet. I was about 29 at this time, and I met with him for about three hours and I slid a script over to him. 10 minutes into it and he turned me down. So my hero's just turned me down twice, I'm out of $1,000, out of plane ticket, etc, etc, etc. So when I get home, I go, I've got to work with him. I've got to show him that I mean it. That I'm serious about filmmaking. And then it clicked. Hey, I Knew It Was You: Rediscovering John Cazale. Hey, The Kid Stays in the Picture. His Way about Jerry Weintraub who produced Karate Kid. That's it. So I called John Avildsen. I said, hey, listen, I've been thinking, I really want to work with you. And if I can't make a movie with you, I want to make a movie about you. And he goes, you want to work with me, kid? You're in. Let's do it. And that is how I got into documentaries.

35:34
Wow. And that's, the name of that film is John Avildsen: King of the Underdogs. Is that right?

35:40
Yes.

35:41
I must say I haven't had a chance to see it, but I will definitely search it out now. In a lot of ways, he's one of these unheard of, you know, directors and he's got a Best Director Oscar, you know, all these things. And he's got these iconic films that he's a part of.

35:54
Yeah, that's one reason why I wanted to make a doc on him. Was that he was my hero and it was like, wait, how come no one knows about this guy? And then going all the way to 40 years of Rocky: The Birth of Classic or Becoming Rocky: The Birth of Classic, it's like, look what he did. Like look at what he left us. Even Sly talks about, in the documentary, the classic, he talks about like, John annoyed me with this eight millimeter camera in my face all the time, but I'm glad he did, because now we have this footage.

36:30
No, it's great. I mean it's amazing. Because here he is. He's this great director. He's got his little super eight running around, you know. You'd expect maybe one of his kids to be doing that or something. But yeah, he's documenting everything. And Sly did admit he wasn't too happy about it. But thank goodness he did. I mean, you've got, we've already alluded to this, some of your other projects and basically you've got two that have come out in the same year. And this is this film Stallone: Frank, That Is. Now it's best feature documentary at the 2020 Beverly Hills Film Festival, 2020 Garden State Film Festival, 2020 Hell's Kitchen NYC Film Festival. Maybe you can give us a little brief synopsis or basically give us a little trailer since we don't have a trailer for that, and we'll be looking for this in the future, and if we haven't scared you off, maybe you can come back on and we can really dive into that film, but maybe give us a little background on Stallone: Frank, That Is.

37:34
You definitely haven't scared me, although but I haven't scared you off with all of my crazy stories.

37:39
No, no, we want more crazy the better. So we'll talk about that before the next time.

37:44
Well, it's that Texas storytelling thing. Stallone: Frank, That Is, which is a title Frank came up with, which I think is very clever. It's a feature length documentary on the life and times of Frank Stallone. I laugh every time I say that because it's such a fun documentary. Frank basically has been living in a giant shadow for the last 40 plus years. And we hit on that in the doc. I mean, here's a guy who is a very talented singer, songwriter, musician. He's got a Grammy nomination, a Golden Globe nomination. And, and yet, you either don't know about Frank Stallone, or you do and you're like, Oh, that's Sly's brother. But you'd be surprised at the following that Frank has. I've been to probably 20 of his shows. He sells out every time and he's phenomenal. And I'm not just saying that because he's a buddy of mine. And that I made this doc. I mean, I really, when I dove into this documentary, I was like - this guy, he's like and, Frank, this is a compliment. He's like a real life Forest Gump but that is intelligent. In the sense that, you're like, he did this? He was there for that? Wait, John Oates played guitar for him before Hall & Oates? Wait, Richie Sambora played guitar for him before Bon Jovi? And you just see like it unravel that this guy has just done it all. And yet here he is, almost 70 years old and still selling out shows.

39:26
Yeah, it's very, I want to thank you for allowing me to have a sneak peek at that. I've watched it and I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Like everyone else, I just had this sort of Frank Stallone, oh, he's Sly Stalone's hanging on brother, basically, unfortunately. That's the reputation he's had. But, I think, hopefully we will get an opportunity to discuss it more another time. But I think one thing that comes off, first of all the relationship. It's like all these great docs - it's not about, well it is about Frank Stallone he is obviously the subject. But it's, it's kind of like Sly Stallone says about, in the the Rocky short that we've been discussing, that it's not a boxing movie. It just happens to be about someone who boxes but it's about love and all these other issues. And this doc is really about family and brothers and, you know, relationships and life and how life throws most of us curveballs every now and then. And maybe him a few more times than just every now and then. So, I mean, maybe you can, have there been any, it hasn't been released yet. But are there, has there been any issues trying to get that through release and distribution. Is the Coronavirus and all this stuff been a factor? Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about that.

40:57
Yeah, the Coronavirus has been a factor on its release. At this moment, our distribution deal is pending. Well, we have a distributor, who's out of the UK Branded Studios. But they're, getting this on the platforms and everything because of Coronavirus has pushed that film back. But in a way I'm glad. And I think Frank would agree. I'm glad that the Rocky doc came out first, because I think that that's going to put a lot of eyes on Frank's documentary when it comes out. It will be coming out this year. But you know, COVID-19 has just, it's just changed the entire world and our industry. But I can't wait for people to see this film. Because you hit it. You hit the nail on the head. It's a film about brothers, family. And a guy that like just, he's taken so much crap from people, but he's still selling out shows, he's still rocking. And, man, I just can't wait for it to come out. And just, I don't know, shine a light on just a good guy. Frank Stallone.

42:12
We just recently had, I don't know if you heard of it, but there's a documentary on Doo-Wop music, that's Streetlight Harmonies, and we had the director, producer from there on the last podcast. The reason I bring that up is we're talking about, I think there's almost a generational thing here. Because this is a guy, Brent Wilson, who is the director, he's done docs, he's done music videos, that's how he got started. He's dealt with, he's worked with Britney and people like that, NSYNC and who knows. But I asked him a question about what was different about these artists. Because, you know, he's got these people and they're like, well, most of them are in their 70s, for these Doo-Wop artists. Some of them even into their 80s, and they're still going strong. And they're still, you know, touring. And he says, well, he can't think of anyone, even the best artists now, who would keep, were thinking that maybe in their 70s, they'll still be touring and trying to sell tickets to concerts. And it just strikes me that, you know, Frank is of a similar background. He is from Philly. He has the sort of street corner singing scene, obviously the famous one in Rocky and then in Rocky Two. So that's, I think that is something we said about, I don't know, maybe it's this generation. What do you think?

43:31
Yeah, I think so. I mean, these guys, and Frank will be 70 this month, these guys, they had to go out and work for it. And this is pre-internet. This is, I mean, this is the vinyl era, radio. And they had to go out and they had to play. And you'll even learn in the Frank Stallone doc, I mean, I don't want to give too much away because I want to come back and talk about it. But, you know, if you remember he says that one night he played for a meal. Because he was starving. I mean, you know, are kids doing that these days? I don't know. I doubt it. But back then, I mean, that was a big, a big deal, you had to eat. And in order to eat, you had to work and they put in the work. So these Doo-Wop guys and this people from this generation, I mean, they're still going. And also that's real, genuine music. No electronics, anything like that. These guys had instruments. They wrote songs, they went out, they performed, or in the case of Doo-Wop, they may not have had instruments, but they knew how to write songs. And I feel like that generation just is kind of, you know, in Frank's case, he's not like a hard rocker. He's before that. It's very interesting. And even Sly, they're not of that era. They're before that, like right before it. Which is interesting because you know, you look at Rocky and we highlight Frank's contribution of Rocky in The Birth of a Classic. Where he's standing on the street corner with his band. Rocky is full of that Doo-Wop fill, that generations fill. There's no hard rock in Rocky. And you actually learn about that in the documentary as well. That there was almost, I won't say who, but there was almost some hard rock in that film.

45:36
There almost was. I won't say anything else about that. But yes, I was quite actually surprised who they almost had, in the doc. So we'll keep it that as it is. I mean, you were raising earlier, how COVID-19 has affected everything. It's very interesting, because, well, Alamo Pictures is someone who produces this podcast and my own experience working with them as well, is that you know, there's this idea that oh, well, all these VODs, they're searching for content. Wouldn't they be hungry? You know, the world should be your oyster. You should be able to get anything. But I'm hearing the exact opposite. It seems to be taking people so much longer even to get stuff out there.

46:22
Yeah, we thought the same thing. We we'e like, oh, wow, like, I mean for streaming? Like maybe. VOD? VOD is probably dying out anyway. People don't want to rent or buy, they just want to stream. But so many people are at home. They are hungry for content. The thing is, a lot of these companies, they had to send their staff home. So they're also getting a fluctuation, influx of content coming their way. So short staffed, all this stuff coming, they're trying to figure out what to do with it and how to get it out there. So, it's just, yes, you would think that they'd be like, aha, this is how we're going to do this. But it's just jammed up the frequency, so to speak. And it's very sad, but, again, I just don't think that we ever saw this coming or knew how to handle it. And our industry just changes so rapidly. Like, you know, people were asking quite a bit. The hardcore fans are like, is The Birth of a Classic going to be on DVD or Blu-Ray? And that just blows my mind and I would love it to be. I don't think it will be. But then you have people that are like, why isn't it streaming? Why do I have to rent it or buy it? Or no, you can't even rent it, you buy it? This is too short to rent. Can you buy it? And I'm like what, what? Just really, you can't just... It's 30 minutes! You know, the whole industry is just turned upside down.

48:14
Like the world, really. So Derek, what's next for you? What's on the horizon after Stallone: Frank, That Is gets released?

48:24
Well, my company, we've kind of started two companies, Cinema 83 Entertainment focuses on feature films. Cinema 83 documentary films, focuses on documentaries. So, we're starting to kind of get back into features and balance the documentary side. I don't want to jump the gun. We're not doing features immediately, but we're starting to develop and get back to that. So, next stop is, we do have another documentary coming up. Can't really talk about it, but what I can say is who it's about, and it's a documentary, feature length, on Don Rickles and Bob Newhart. That's all I'll say. It's gonna be quite fantastic.

49:12
Oh my god, that is amazing. I mean, probably revealing my age here. But, one time when I was much younger someone asked me, if I could have any one as my dad, besides my real dad, and thank god he's still alive, I said Bob Newhart. And it's a very, I won't give it away, because I know about the interesting relationship between Bob Newhart and Rickles. It's, all I'll say is I know they used to go on vacation together, didn't they?

49:45
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of home movies of them.

49:49
I imagine there are and I imagine they could be extremely hilarious. And there's a Don Rickles connection, I will say also in the Frank movie and maybe this is how you got there. I don't know. But...

50:04
Sort of. No, there's a, there's a really interesting way how this came about. But, you know, it's sad because I wanted to interview Don Rickles, for the Frank documentary and he passed away. And he and Bob Newhart are, they're just obviously icons and two of my favorites. So, again, I don't want to give too much away, but it is kind of out there that we're going to do this. So, we're very excited about that. And then I can't wait to get back to feature films as well. I just, I really can't wait to get back to feature films.

50:44
But I guess it's, I mean, and not to belabor this point, but I guess it's probably a little easier to make a doc at this point in time, than it is a feature.

50:54
Yeah, well, you know, they're cheaper, easier to fund. But, you know, for the price that we do a doc, we could go make a feature, but it just wouldn't be what we need. And we've done that. We've made the low budget features and most of which I don't claim, but...

51:17
They're not going to be in the show notes. Don't worry.

51:19
Right. So we're getting there.

51:23
Okay. Hey, well, it's hard to believe at least on my end, that we are coming up to the end of our time. So Derek, I just wanted to thank you again for joining us from the piney woods of East Texas, Lady Bird Johnson territory, I guess. And just to say that, just remind our listeners that you are the director, writer, editor, producer of 40 years of Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as it's known in the USA and Canada, and Becoming Rocky: The Birth of a Classic, as everyone else will soon know it. And also be on the lookout for Stallone: Frank, That Is. I want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England. And to remind you to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

52:22
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures, specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festival showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk