Working: What We Do All Day featuring Barack Obama
Working: What We Do All Day is a docu-series that explores both what it means to work and the ways in which the meaning of work is changing.
Presented by former US President Barack Obama, the docu-series focuses on people working in three different industries: technology, hospitality, and home care. Through him, we hear of their dreams, and their reality; their hopes, and their fears.
Joining Matthew Sherwood to discuss Working: What We Do All Day is its director, Caroline Suh. Among other things, she reveals how President Obama became involved in the docu-series, the discoveries that she made in the making of it, and the rationale behind choosing the featured companies.
Working: What We Do All Day is a multi-layered film. As Caroline tells Matthew, it enters the lives of people up and down the corporate ladder and seeks to find points of connection between them. In doing so, the docu-series challenges our tendency to do what Caroline admits she once did; that is, only think about the work she is doing now rather than the deeper meaning of it.
To quote Barack Obama, ‘our work is one of the forces that connects us’ to each other. Working: What We Do All Day helps demystify that force. In doing so, it brings us closer to one another. Find out what he means, learn about some of Matthew’s dirtier jobs (!), and even Richard Scarry on this episode of Factual America!
“... when someone does something incredibly well, no matter what it is, there’s a beauty to it, and it reaffirms your faith in humanity.” – Caroline Suh
Time Stamps
01:58 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Caroline Suh, and her docu-series, Working: What We Do All Day
03:34 – Caroline explains what Working: What We Do All Day is about
04:20 – How Caroline came to make Working: What We Do All Day
07:28 – Tech, Services, and Homecare: the three sectors explored in the series
08:36 – Behind the series’ decisions to focus on particular places and companies in the USA
13:45 – Caroline’s surprise when companies open their doors to documentary crews
15:52 – How Working: What We Do All Day explores life all the way up the corporate ladder
18:50 – How we think about work too much (or too little)
19:26 – What surprised Caroline in making Working: What We Do All Day
22:58 – Working with Barack Obama
27:06 – The usefulness and challenge of having a smartphone
28:49 – Lessons to be learnt about work(ing) in the documentary industry
31:30 – Changes in working patterns
33:51 – The search of meaning in the workplace
37:44 – What’s next for Caroline
Resources:
Working: What We Do All Day
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Caroline Suh:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 134: Working: What We Do All Day featuring Barack Obama
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (01:58)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. What brings you joy in work? What gives you purpose? What makes a good job, good. These are the questions that President Barack Obama asks in the fascinating docu-series Working: What We Do All Day. Join us as we talk with director Caroline Suh, about the ways in which we find meaning in our work, and how our experiences and struggles connect us on a human level, be it an entry level homecare worker in Mississippi, or former president of the United States. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:37
Caroline Suh, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Caroline Suh 00:41
Yeah, great, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Matthew Sherwood 00:44
Well, it's an honour to have you on. We're talking about the new Netflix docu-series that is releasing - we're recording this beforehand, but most of you will hear this afterwards. I think it's releasing on May 17. It's Working: What We Do All Day. And so, welcome again to Factual America, it's great to have you on, and congratulations on getting this project made, and onto Netflix.
Caroline Suh 01:07
Thank you very much. It's been a long time in the making. So it's good that it's finally getting in there.
Matthew Sherwood 01:12
I think anyone who sees this will appreciate that comment even more. I think it was quite a - you took a lot on in doing this project. But maybe, for most of our listeners and viewers will not have seen this yet, so what is Working: What We Do All Day all about?
Caroline Suh 01:31 (03:34)
So, it's really a documentary series that is inspired by Studs Terkel's book, Working, which is about kind of what life is like for everyday people from all walks of life, and kind of taking that inspiration at a time when things are really changing for a lot of people, and people don't know what the future looks like. So, it's, you know, we're trying to give people an idea of what life looks like and what it will look like, and some, you know, in a way that's very human and intimate.
Matthew Sherwood 02:16 (04:20)
Okay. And how did this project come about? I mean, we know that maybe in our intro, people will have heard that President Obama is involved in this project. He certainly narrates the series. Whose idea was this? How did this come about?
Caroline Suh 02:33
So, you know, I think the President had been interested in this subject of work, and, you know, his life's work has certainly been about jobs and helping people lead kind of better lives. And Davis Guggenheim, who's the head of the production company, they came together and decided they wanted to do a series about it. And then I was reached out to by someone who worked at Concordia, who said, Oh, it's a series about work. And I said, I'm not really interested. Who wants to watch something about work when did they get home from work? And then he said, Oh, it's with President Obama. And then I immediately said, Yes. That sounds great. So, yeah, so it was, you know, when we started out, we had no idea how we wanted the series to be, what it would be. And we just kind of dove in.
Matthew Sherwood 03:36
I mean, yeah, okay. So, how do you approach a series about work? I mean, like you said, you initially were wary, but then you find out President Obama is involved, and - but how do you make it - I mean, because - how do you make it into a fascinating docu-series?
Caroline Suh 03:49
It's, you know, we basically kind of set out to figure out what is work? Like, how do we look at it? What are the important things to kind of understand about work? What are, you know, trends? What are, you know, what do economists say about work? What do sociologists say about work? So, you know, it's a ginormous subject, and what we realised kind of early on is that work is really the centre of life for most people, including myself. I mean, it's where people make friends. It's where people - we spend - a lot of your life is at work and working. It's where people meet their spouses. It's like, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 04:33
It's where I met mine!
Caroline Suh 04:34
... oh, really?
Matthew Sherwood 04:35
Yeah.
Caroline Suh 04:36
Do you still work with her? Is she in the studio somewhere?
Matthew Sherwood 04:38
No, no, we don't work together, but we did years ago in one of our first jobs, yeah.
Caroline Suh 04:45
So, that was probably at a time when you could actually meet your spouse at work...
Matthew Sherwood 04:48
Exactly. Exactly.
Caroline Suh 04:50
[...] little trickier. But, so, you know, just trying to get our minds around this very kind of amorphous subject and what, you know, what a series about work say, and what would be interesting about it. So, you know, we did just a tonne of research about the future of work and some various themes that President Obama would be interested in...
Matthew Sherwood 05:11 (07:28)
Yeah, and he's - I mean, as you say, it a keen interest of his, and yet you - I mean, as you said it's such a ginormous subject, and also, you got to make this interesting for an audience. I mean, you end up focusing on three key sectors, don't you. That's one way you've kind of boiled it down, and, what is it: tech, services, and home care, I think it is. And why these three?
Caroline Suh 05:39
Well, we wanted to - I mean, you know, we felt like if we had this opportunity to make this series it had to be very relevant. So, those are three sectors of the future. So, a lot of people will find that the jobs that are available to them, will be in one of those sectors. So, you know, we wanted to give people kind of a behind-the-scenes look at what these jobs of the future look like.
Matthew Sherwood 06:07
And it's also because a lot of the other jobs that we think of are just disappearing, right?
Caroline Suh 06:12
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the themes that we kind of set out, you know, exploring, is automation and AI, and, you know, what jobs are going to become out-moded, and what are, like, great jobs of the future. So, that's how we came to our driverless car story.
Matthew Sherwood 06:30 (08:36)
Yeah, well, speaking of which, I mean, you've got - and that's the other thing you, so, focus on three key areas of work. But then you also look at, in terms of place, and the companies you focused on, because it's three companies and three different - mostly in three different parts of the United States - I mean, how did you go about identifying those companies and deciding to focus on them?
Caroline Suh 06:56
You know, I used to describe it as being like a sudoku puzzle where you're, like, you're figuring out the top, and you're also figuring out what happens when you add things up at the bottom, but it really is more like - it was more like a Rubik's Cube, just, like, so many variables and trying to weigh everything against each other. And like, if we do this, is this place too similar? So, eventually, we were able to kind of narrow it down to industries and cities and kind of put them together. I mean, in terms of locations, we wanted places that were kind of evocative of, like, America's past, and, like, the working past and places where you might see those kind of historical underpinnings, like, today. And it's not really super overt, but it's kind of there, so.
Matthew Sherwood 07:46
No, I think it was brilliantly done. I mean, you've got - so, for our listeners who have not seen this yet, we're talking about Pittsburgh, which is a area that's, I don't say, completely, but largely reinvented itself. I mean, most Americans of a certain age will think of it as steel mills and things but it's far from that. And I've never been but I've heard it's a lovely place, and it's really changed. And I love your dog in the background...!
Caroline Suh 08:11
Oh yeah, I have a giant dog who will be listening in on the interview!
Matthew Sherwood 08:15
That's fine. It won't be the first dog to make an appearance! Obviously, New York City, and then you've got - and then Mississippi, which I found - I really found that interesting.
Caroline Suh 08:27
Mississippi is an interesting place. One thing that we learned, like a little factoid that I thought was fascinating, was that it used to be the richest state in the union. And now it's the [least] and I had never even - you know, I think people think of Mississippi usually as, you know, not thriving, which is true. But, you know, so it's interesting to see how a place can go up and down depending on what kind of industries, or...
Matthew Sherwood 08:56
... yeah, and then I mean, okay, so it's gonna sound like - you can tell I've got an - maybe - an economics and business background as well, but you also focus on three, I like the three types of companies. So, you've got - a word, I haven't used in a long time, but, like, a conglomerate, literally, in Tata. And then you've got Aurora, which was a start-up, it's more than a start-up now, but it is an up-and-coming and then you've got this small-medium sized enterprise. Is it Mississippi Homecare that's the other - you know, and so, so very - I mean, it's very much a great case study approach to this that you've got. I don't know if that was your intention, but it is very much like you've got a lot of, you know, a lot represented there in terms of what - the kind of places people are working.
Caroline Suh 09:51
We definitely tried to kind of, you know, back up the series with as much research as possible, and then hope that it kind of fell away with the actual characters who we were following, and who we were spending time with. So, we did have all these prerequisites, like, we wanted to do a tech company, we wanted to do something about, like, kind of how a city gets reinvented and who gets left out. And, you know, Mississippi has a long history of exclusion. I mean, that's not the story we were telling but that definitely has an effect on, you know, jobs there today. And then New York was actually - we were supposed to film in Mumbai at the Taj Hotel, which is a famous Tata hotel. But because of Covid, we - travelling abroad was kind of just a no-go, so we pivoted, and we shot at the Pier, which ended up being great for us.
Matthew Sherwood 10:58
Yeah. And I think - and in some ways, probably good too, because it ends up all three locations are in the US. I mean, not that this is only - you know, it has an appeal well beyond US audiences, obviously. But it kind of squares the circle, if you will, that all of them are in US...
Caroline Suh 11:17
Yes. It's a little bit neater. And I live in New York, so it was very convenient for me!
Matthew Sherwood 11:23
You're probably thinking, why hadn't you thought of that sooner?!
Caroline Suh 11:25
Exactly. Why don't I ever shoot in New York?!
Matthew Sherwood 11:27
Exactly! I mean, you have an incredible level of access with these companies. And it's not every company that would just open up their doors and have you - because, you know, you're going in there, you're showing everything.
Caroline Suh 11:41 (13:45)
I'm always shocked when people open their doors, just to any, you know, documentary crew or camera crew, but they were really open, and they didn't even know at the beginning that the President was involved, so...
Matthew Sherwood 11:53
Is that right?
Caroline Suh 11:54
... so, they just had an enormous amount of trust. I think - I mean, I tend to think that if you're, like, really proud of your company, you're gonna want to show it off, and you don't feel like you have anything to hide. So, that might have been part of it.
Matthew Sherwood 12:09
And you weren't trying to - I mean - and that's part of how you identified them, right. You knew you had places that at least had a relatively good work culture and reputation, you know, because there's - I'm sure plenty of exposes out there about...
Caroline Suh 12:23
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 12:23
... things that aren't great, right?
Caroline Suh 12:25
Yeah. So, we wanted to be able to honestly say, like, okay, these are companies that we're not, like, actively endorsing, though, you know, we feel like they're not these, like, evil corporations that are doing bad things, so.
Matthew Sherwood 12:43
I think that gives us a quick - good time to give our listeners and viewers a quick early break. So, we'll be right back with Caroline Suh, the director of Working: What We Do All Day. The docu-series is released on Netflix on May 17.
Factual America Midroll 12:58
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 13:17 (15:52)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Caroline Suh, the director of Working: What We Do All Day. It's released on Netflix on May 17. And then the other thing, Caroline, we were talking about - so, this making the film and, you know, finding the subjects both in terms of - well, certainly in terms of the companies and the sectors, and then, I guess, that then led you to the individuals that you follow. But this series, literally, it takes us up the corporate ladder, doesn't it, and that was - I wasn't necessarily expecting that when I heard it was a series on work - so, what was the thinking there? And how did that come about?
Caroline Suh 14:06
I think that we realised that, you know, your perspective on work, and the reality of work is so different depending on where you are, what kind of work you do, and where you are on the ladder. So, we kind of wanted to show different sides of work from, you know, different levels of the same company. And then we thought, you know, the President is also, like, really interested in idea of connection, and so we wanted to show how people's jobs affected each other, even if they didn't realise it. So, there might be someone whose job really affects what you do, but you don't even necessarily know them...
Matthew Sherwood 14:46
Or have never met them or anything.
Caroline Suh 14:47
... exactly, and you never will, maybe; so, I wanted to show that kind of interconnection, and then also, you know, I think - I mean one of the pitfalls of doing it that way is that you can kind of - sometimes people who have more are, like, really easy to demonise over people who have less or, you know, there are kind of easy, like, facile judgements you can make when you juxtapose people that way, but we really wanted to try and not do that, and just kind of show kind of, like, there are certain universal things that everyone goes through.
Matthew Sherwood 15:26
I liked how also that things are kind of interweaved. Like, a character you meet in episode one, maybe has a bit part in episode three...
Caroline Suh 15:34
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 15:34
... you know, that kind of thing. You know, that just shows there is this kind of - this interconnectedness you're talking about. And I guess, probably these companies are better for that. It did strike me that - like the Pier hotel, and all of them, that seemed to be a bit more open, and interaction from senior levels on, and down, and back up.
Caroline Suh 15:57
Yeah, I mean, people, you know, work there for decades. When you have, like, a really stable situation, people then like, they really, I mean, it's a cliché, but they really do become family. Because when you work with someone eight hours a day for 30 years, you're gonna, you know, [know them] really well. Whereas if you - I mean, and that's one of the things like being an Uber driver for Carmen, that's kind of lonely work, you don't ever have that, like, that culture. I mean, as much as, you know, office culture can be annoying and bad, it can also be great, and make you feel like you're a part of something when it's good.
Matthew Sherwood 16:32 (18:50)
So, I mean, people should check out the series, I think it's very fascinating. It raises a lot of issues that I think are - probably everyone's kind of aware of, but we don't often - I mean, I guess that's the other thing, how often do - we think about work, we probably think about work way too much, and we think about it a lot, but we don't necessarily think about it in this way, do we?
Caroline Suh 16:55
I never did. I only just thought, I guess in a self-absorbed way about my own work. I'm like, do I like my work? Do I? What do I want to do next? But I'm taking a step back, and I'm looking at it - I really, I just learned more than I ever have on any project about the world, just about how the world works, and, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 17:16
So, what did you learn? What were you not expecting? Or what has surprised you in doing this project?
Caroline Suh 17:22 (19:26)
I think - well, I mean, one very basic thing is, like, I knew nothing about the homecare industry. And now I feel like - and, you know, knowing how central it will be for all of our lives, how, you know, most of us will, at one point rely on a home care aide at some point, whether for our parents, or ourselves, or - and how that's, like, such a bad job, really, that's a hard job and really poorly [paid] - paid less than McDonald's, McDonald's worker. That was really sobering. And I think when we're making it, like, all of us went through some home care related thing in our own lives that kind of brought that home. And then it just made me really, like, ask questions like, why is, like, women's work, women's work? And that was a question that came from the President. Like, why are some jobs so kind of stubbornly tied to women?
Matthew Sherwood 18:23
Yeah.
Caroline Suh 18:24
And also, why are those jobs considered unskilled. So, it kind of made me just kind of think of the basics. Like, why do we think that factory work is a much more difficult job than, like, taking care of another human being? And then kind of learning that that's for a whole host of reasons, some of which, like, date back in time to policies and...
Matthew Sherwood 18:44
Right, right. I mean, I agree with you, especially on the home care side. I mean, just in my own personal life, currently, in terms of family members. You know, there's - we have a - well, I'm encountering home care for probably the first time and what has surprised me is...
Caroline Suh 19:02
A parent?
Matthew Sherwood 19:02
... yeah, so, my father, you know, and I think it's one of these things where, like, for instance, my brother tells me, well, the hospice nurses come in, you know, and I'm expecting it to be a woman. And it's actually a man, you know. I mean, doesn't matter. Doesn't obviously matter. But you do have these preconceptions of who does what.
Caroline Suh 19:24
Yeah. I mean, those are jobs. I mean, those are jobs mostly held by women. So, it's unusual to have a...
Matthew Sherwood 19:36
Yeah, yeah. And at the same time, what does it say about us as a society that we, for whatever reason, we value it so little, something that is, you know - and probably everyone, you know, it does come down to - I'm not saying in our situation, but people will say, Well, how much is that care going to cost? You know, and can I afford it, right, so I can understand the pressures to keep costs down. But yet, what are we saying? Like you said, that - what's the really - the young woman who ends up talking with President Obama at the end...
Caroline Suh 20:10
Oh, Randi.
Matthew Sherwood 20:11
Yeah, Randi, yeah. So, she was like, she could have made more at the chicken plant, right, or, you know...
Caroline Suh 20:18
I think the big problem was the pay for her. Yeah, I mean, it - yeah, it does make you wonder, like, where we put our priorities. And also, you think of it - like, we don't think of it as, like, being the most important role that needs to be - like, we think, Oh, I have to spend this much on rent, or this much on food, but, like, people question the cost of spending money on, you know, someone who's, like, taking care of the people dearest to you.
Matthew Sherwood 20:46 (22:58)
Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's - I mean, as you said, you know, in working with President Obama, and like we said, it raises a lot of issues - I mean, do you have any chats with him? He was obviously president for eight years. I mean, he must have, you know, he's - does he have any thoughts about things he might have done differently if he, you know, if he could go back? I mean, like, we all do, I'm sure, in terms of...
Caroline Suh 21:13
Yeah, you know, I would never dare to speak for the President! He's my favourite president. So, yeah, I mean, I think that this is, you know, these are all, you know, for instance, it's like, we spent nine months researching this before we shot anything, but what we came to understand is just like, tip of the iceberg, compared to [somebody who] spent, like his entire career working on these issues. So, you know, he lives and breathes this stuff. And he said something at the beginning, which I didn't really get. When we were first meeting, he said something about, like, the luminosity of people, and I'm not a very sentimental person or a very, probably poetic person. But, you know, he said, you know, when you go around and you talk to all these people, you realise there's a luminosity to people. And I was kind of, like, I don't know [if] I buy that for me, in terms of my perspective. But then, when you talk to all these people, you realise that people have so much to say, or have such clarity in what they think and believe and know. It's really incredible. I mean, if someone were to turn the camera on me and just asked me to talk about, I would just be a bumbling mess, but, like, people are so - it's just always surprising how articulate people are, and how much - how they look at things kind of philosophically, and...
Matthew Sherwood 22:48
I mean, everyone that you have in the series, certainly fits that bill, right. And I think back to Randi, I found that whole scene in the supermarket, in the grocery store, really interesting, because not only she - and even leading up to that, because she is philosophical. She is, you know, she's not seeing this as just a job, she is seeing this, as, you know, it's about meaning in her life, what does she want to do, and how she wants to help people, and things like that. But I thought when she turned it around and asked, I won't go into the answer, but when she asked the President the question that was quite, you know, that was quite poignant.
Caroline Suh 23:32
It was. I mean, we were all shocked, and just looking at each other, and they're like, we [couldn't] believe the poise of this woman to just - and he, yeah, that was one of the great, like, greatest moments of shooting is that - because we didn't ask her to ask him that. We just said Oh, if you want to ask him some questions, you should go ahead.
Matthew Sherwood 23:52
Right. Right.
Caroline Suh 23:54
But, yeah, she's an old soul. She has, like, kind of like wisdom beyond her years and a way with words and - I think, I mean, one of my favourite parts of the series is actually in that same episode in the scene in McDonald's, when she had her [...], one of them is saying, like, people say, like, what kind of crops do you grow in Mississippi. Like, as if she was a farmer - like everyone is a farmer. And she said, I've never planted a crop in my life. Like, that people - and then Randi says something like, Oh, if you can Google it, basically, you can know anything. You can live anywhere, and know anything. And, you know, we have these like - I mean, I live in New York City, so I have biases, probably about other parts of the country, knowing certain things, but, like, people wherever you live...
Matthew Sherwood 24:39 (27:06)
Yeah. Yeah. What I love about that story, too, is that she'd gone to Missouri, and they said - probably most of your friends in New York think, well, Missouri, Mississippi, it's, you know, what crops do they grow in Missouri is what they're thinking, you know, but no, I think it's this kind of - is it a levelling up? Or is it a levelling down? But yes, you're right, everyone's got, you know, at our fingertips, you know...
Caroline Suh 25:08
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 25:08
Even the working poor have - most likely have a smartphone, you know, so they've got this little mini-computer in their hand, and they've got that, you know, that - which could be quite a liberating thing, actually, in some ways.
Caroline Suh 25:25
Yeah. It's also - I mean, actually, this - we kind of tried to hint at this in the series in episode two a little bit, but one of the things that President Obama said is, like, that, because of Instagram, for instance, you can see, like, all these fabulous lives...
Matthew Sherwood 25:40
There's that, yeah.
Caroline Suh 25:41
... the people and it makes - and everyone can see it...
Matthew Sherwood 25:45
Yeah.
Caroline Suh 25:45
... so that has an effect, you know, like, people feel like they should be living like Jay Z, and if you're not, then, like, who are you.
Matthew Sherwood 25:56
Well, exactly, and we all do it. And the thing is, I wasn't even on Facebook till a couple years ago. I had to do it for this job, actually. But I then started, you know, finding old friends and things, and I was just like, Oh, my God, look at these lives. Everything's perfect. You know, they...
Caroline Suh 26:09
Oh, yeah. I can't go on Instagram, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 26:12
Yeah.
Caroline Suh 26:13
Yeah. Like, why is my daughter not eating organic kale for breakfast?
Matthew Sherwood 26:18
Yeah.
Caroline Suh 26:19
It just makes you question all of your choices.
Matthew Sherwood 26:23 (28:49)
Exactly. I mean, speaking of choices in life and things - I mean, what is - you're talking about things - we were talking about things you've learned from the series, and what people, when they see this, what they'll find out about, well, just maybe give everyone pause for thought about where we are, and where things are headed with how we spend the vast majority of our days. But, you know, are there lessons here to be learned for the documentary industry? You know, in terms of working conditions, and things like that, you know?
Caroline Suh 26:54
Well, that's a big - that's in the news a lot these days. I mean, I think, you know, I mean, the series isn't my, like, personal platform for my ideas. I'm trying to [...], but at the same time, you know, I think, some of, like, some things that really hit home are, like, the beauty of work, not to be too cheesy, but like, you know, when someone does something incredibly well, no matter what it is, there's a beauty to it. And it kind of reaffirms your, like, faith in humanity, like, even if someone, like, you're getting a coffee, and someone is just really on it, or you know, we worked with this incredible crew kind of - we tried to work with the same crew on all the shoots just for the intimacy, and so just when we were shooting with the President, you're seeing how - I mean, these are people who are always on top of their game, every shoot, every day, because in our industry, you have to be, because you get hired, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 28:02
Right.
Caroline Suh 28:02
... if you have a bad experience with someone, you're not going to hire them again. But it makes you kind of like, in a Richard Scarry way, see all these people around you who are doing their work, and just, like, appreciate the, like, integrity of it when people are doing it well. And we all have our functions. And if someone doesn't do something, it can affect everyone else.
Matthew Sherwood 28:29 (31:30)
I love the Richard Scarry reference. It's the first one on any of our episodes, but I was a huge fan when I was a kid. So, thank you for doing that. But I mean, you know, it's an industry where, like, even in one of the episodes, the second one, I think, you know, you're driving around Pittsburgh, and they're talking about what lives used to be like, you know, and, you know, we're still in a - I hear what you're saying about - I completely agree. You know, the whole world would fall over and not function if people - if, you know, we [...], all this trust we have in all our fellow humans, that we're all going to do our jobs to the best of our ability, or at least try. Some don't, but most of us do, I think. But even like, you know, it was an era where, you know, they talked about - well, in this case, back in that time, it would have been mostly fathers, but fathers coming home and having time in the evenings to pitch baseballs with their sons, and, you know, and not just documentary, but all industry. We were working just such long hours. And I know we throw ourselves into it, but at the same time, you know, I don't know what can be done about that. But it does - it's one of these things that if we could just, we're constantly on the clock, it seems like.
Caroline Suh 29:44
Yeah, I think that's one thing - at least for me, and some people I know; like, Covid really changed that a little bit. It kind of made you pause and think like, Okay, I'm like, What is the purpose of all of this and what do I really want and what's important, I think - I mean, for those of us who could, who weren't like frontline workers, who could have that kind of moment of like, okay, [...], you know, we talked a lot about like, okay, the great resignation, is that something we should be addressing? Or working from home. But I think we've - anyway, it didn't seem like the great resignation was really, truly a thing, and that working from home was something that really only a small portion of people really could do. A lot of people just had to go to work the whole time.
Matthew Sherwood 30:33
Yeah. No, I think, yeah, it's interesting about the great resignation, because it is - just so, if listeners don't know what we're talking about it's...
Caroline Suh 30:42
Sorry, I veered off.
Matthew Sherwood 30:43
No, no, no, it's just that all these people - a lot of people have left the job for. It's not just in the US, but certainly in the US, a lot of people left the workforce sort of permanently. There's that and also people were resigning and moving jobs very quickly. And so, you have all these, in theory, technically, you have all these job openings, but you still also have a lot of people that are out of work. So, you know, it's kind of a hard one to explain. And I think it's - you didn't need to go there. Economists are writing about it and trying to figure out what's happened, but no one really knows.
Caroline Suh 31:15
I mean, people would become homecare workers if they were better jobs, probably. You know, I mean, there are a lot of jobs that people don't want to do, because they're poorly [paid]. Yeah, I mean, I think there is also like, a big generational thing. That was one of the biggest things I learned about, is how different it is, how younger people tend to look at work differently and expect more from their jobs than, say, I did when I was young.
Matthew Sherwood 31:44 (33:51)
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, like, I think that's a good point that's made. I think the President says that it's even the, you know, people in their first job are looking for the meaning in that job.
Caroline Suh 31:45
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 31:59
And some of us - and probably maybe we're of a generation that was looking for meaning eventually, or hoping to find meaning, but you also knew that you needed to pay the bills, and then you had a, you know, our parents' generation or whatever, were like, well, you just got to get a job. Just have to provide for your family. You know, and thinking less about that. So, it is interesting, but I don't think it's necessarily - it's probably - it's good that they're thinking that way. I would say.
Caroline Suh 32:28
Yeah, I think - I mean, I at least would have a knee jerk reaction, which is like, you know, when I was coming up, I had to do this, and this. When you really, like, kind of open your mind to it, you're kind of are thinking like, yeah, work should be - you should be able to be your full self at work. Not kind of cowering under, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 32:50
Right, yeah, exactly. Be yourself, but I guess it's, you know, if I'm going to be the - play, sort of the old man in the room, I'm going to say that - but or whatever job you're in, try to find the meaning in it, I guess is another way of looking at it.
Caroline Suh 33:03
That's a good - I'm gonna use that. Next time I need to - I'm talking to disgruntled production assistant.
Matthew Sherwood 33:11
Oh, there you go! Yeah, let's see how far you get with that one!
Caroline Suh 33:15
I definitely did not find meaning in all of the work that I did when I was younger.
Matthew Sherwood 33:21
And my parents pushed me into jobs that I was like, Oh, my God, I never want to do this again. And, you know, and, thank goodness - I worked - one of my first summer jobs to get me through college was working for the highway department. So, yeah, it was..
Caroline Suh 33:41
What did that mean? Roadkill?
Matthew Sherwood 33:43
I had to pick up roadkill. I had to bury it. I've had to put tarmac down in the hot Texas sun. I've had to, you know, the good days are when you got to ride around on a truck and put highway signs up and things like that. But, you know, so it was supposed to - I think my dad said I would write about it someday. I haven't. But there were certainly a lot of characters that I encountered in that work. But, yeah, I think it gives you an appreciation for what a lot of people - I mean, I had the luxury that it was three months in a year for four years or something. And there were people there who had been there thirty something years, right, you know, and so - and their perspective, they're always like, Oh, you're a college boy, at least you, you know, you're gonna get a job in an air conditioned office someday. And that was their dream job, you know, that they wouldn't have to be out. I mean, you know, it's a different perspective, certainly, that we don't always have.
Caroline Suh 34:49
I mean, that's one of the things that - sorry, like, I have to put my computer in that - you know, like all of the service jobs, that's one thing we learned there are all, like, are hard on your body. Like, a lot of the worst paid jobs are like, physically laborious, and take a toll on you. So, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 35:13
Yeah, and then I've - I mean, I've had - I've got some teenagers and they're doing sort of, you know, again, service jobs to just - it's interesting to hear when they come home, and what they have to say about it, and complaining about how, their feet hurt because they've been standing all day and things like that. So, you know, it's - anyway, we're not here to..
Caroline Suh 35:35
No, but that's what it's kind of all about. What it's all about, at the end of the day.
Matthew Sherwood 35:41 (37:44)
And what's - so, what's - speaking of work and back to you, Caroline, what is - So, what's next for you, in terms of projects?
Caroline Suh 35:50
So, I am working, I'm finishing another feature doc, which I don't think I can talk about yet. That's something totally different, totally different style. I never like to do the same thing twice. And then, yeah. And then, I mean, this honestly, was so demanding on all levels for so many years that I just - I need to take a little break from work and kind of reassess what the meaning in my work will be.
Matthew Sherwood 36:28
Well, I think that's a good bit of advice. And I wish you well with that. And whatever you do end up doing or can - or when you can tell us we'd love to have you on again. So, if we haven't scared you off. So, just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Caroline Suh, the director of Working: What We Do All Day, released on Netflix on May 17. So, Caroline, thank you again, a pleasure to chat with you.
Caroline Suh 36:55
You, too. Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 36:59
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Factual America Outro 37:39
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