The Downfall of Boeing

Factual America
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Once the pride of American technological know-how, Boeing took a wrong turn toward achieving the bottom line at all costs, even if it meant keeping pilots in the dark and putting passengers' lives at risk. In the end, two Boeing 737 MAX airliners crashed, killing 346 people.

Boeing's PR campaign immediately went into action to disparage and cast aspersions on the flight crews and their countries. Luckily, the families and a few intrepid reporters and politicians would not take Boeing's word as final.

The new Netflix documentary Downfall: The Case Against Boeing, directed and produced by award-winning filmmaker Rory Kennedy, explores the aftermath of the two tragedies and who should be held responsible for them.   

“If you went and killed one person you’d probably spend the rest of your life in prison, so why is a corporation protected, why are the people who run corporations protected?” - Rory Kennedy

Time Stamps:

00:00 - Lack of remorse: a clip from Downfall: The Case Against Boeing. 
02:40 - What the documentary is about.
03:55 - What caused the Boeing plane to mechanically fail. 
05:52 - The unique aspects of Boeing’s corporate greed. 
08:26 - Why Rory decided to make a film about the crashes. 
10:43 - The unique aspect of the story Rory portrays in her film.
14:04 - How Michael Stumo’s daughter died and how he’s coped with losing her.
16:11 - The challenges of making victims relive traumatic events.
17:35 - How the FAA and Boeing covered up the risk of their planes crashing.
19:47 - Why Boeing's management wasn’t held to account for what happened.
21:51 - The immense public outcry against what happened at Boeing.
23:13 - How much Boeing got fined for the deaths they caused.
26:00 - What Rory hopes the legacy of Downfall: The Case Against Boeing will be.
28:30 - Rory’s new film about the global refugee crisis.
34:47 - The dangers of climate change and the future of energy sources.
38:58 - Quality Manager: 2nd clip from the film Downfall: The Case Against Boeing.   

Resources:

Downfall: The Case Against Boeing (2021)
Climate Emergency Fund
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures  

Connect with Rory Kennedy:

IMDb

More From Factual America:

Transcript for Factual America Episode 91: The Downfall of Boeing

Rory Kennedy 00:00
My name is Rory Kennedy, and I am the director and producer of Downfall: The Case against Boeing.

Speaker 1 00:07
Boeing has never reached out to us directly. It communicates their lack of remorse, their lack of accountability. And that's infuriating. For them, it was business as usual. But we're the ones who will try to make sure that other families never have to deal with what we're dealing with.

Speaker 2 00:30
We've met with, I don't know, 55 congressmen and women and senators. It's hard. You go and you relive this 55 times in a row. And talk about your daughter dying.

Matthew 00:51
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome award winning filmmaker Rory Kennedy, producer and director of the Netflix documentary Downfall: The Case against Boeing. Once the pride of American technological know-how, Boeing took a wrong turn toward achieving the bottom line at all costs, even if it meant keeping pilots in the dark and putting passengers lives at risk. In the end two Boeing 737 airliners crashed, killing 346 people. Boeing's PR campaign immediately went into action to disparage and cast aspersions on the flight crews and their countries. Luckily, the families and a few intrepid reporters and politicians would not take Boeing's word as final. Join us as we discuss The Case against Boeing with Rory as well as the projects she's working on at the moment, including an unfortunately timely project about refugees. Rory Kennedy, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Rory Kennedy 02:06
Everything's fine with me. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Matthew 02:10
Yeah, it's great to have you on. Just to remind our listeners that the film we're primarily going to be discussing today is Downfall: The Case against Boeing. It's come out this year, and it's now currently streaming on Netflix, which is where I caught it. Rory, maybe - way we usually start off with our guests is maybe you can give our listeners an idea of what Downfall is about. Maybe a synopsis.

Rory Kennedy 02:38
Yeah, well, Downfall is a documentary - a feature documentary - about Boeing and the 737 Max crashes. These were two airplanes, same model of aircraft, the 737 Max, which crashed within five months of each other in 2019-20 - 2018, 2019, and 346 people died, everybody on board both of those aircrafts died. So, the film is really an investigation as to what happened, exactly. Who knew what, when; who was responsible for these crashes, with the hopes that we can prevent something like this from ever happening again.

Matthew 03:28
Okay. I mean, as you point out, basically, there was - we don't need to go into the detail for the engineers, but there's this faulty system on the planes, is that right? And Boeing was fairly well aware of these things. And there's a - what you document is this, the cover-up and deception and corporate greed that all played into this? Is that right?

Rory Kennedy 03:54
Yeah. Basically, Boeing was in competition with Airbus. Airbus had come out with a aircraft that was very popular and was doing quite well in the marketplace. They had a vision, initially, to create a whole new type of airplane. But they wanted to get something to market quickly to compete with Airbus. And they basically repurposed a 50 year old airframe, a 737 that was built in the 1960s. They put on new engines which were bigger and more fuel efficient. They found when they did that, that under certain circumstances, the airplane would stall and wouldn't work properly. And so, instead of rebuilding the aircraft, they decided they could fix it with a computer system. That computer system is known as the MCAS. It's connected to one sensor on the outside of the airplane. And if that sensor sense that the airplane was going at a certain angle, it would push the nose of the plane downwards. But in both of these instances, that sensor was sending bad, erroneous, information to the MCAS system. And so, even though it was not at a steep incline, it was pushing the nose of the airplane down, and doing it over and over again. And overpowering anything, ultimately, that the pilots could do about it.

Matthew 05:33
And, I mean, there's loads of - well, not loads, but, you know, obviously, like, plenty of docs about corporations taking shortcuts and things like that. What is it about this case that in your mind makes it so different? And unique?

Rory Kennedy 05:52
Yeah, well, listen, I think most of us fly, right. And, I think, you know, even for the brave and courageous amongst us, there is something odd about being, you know, flying through the air at 500 miles an hour in this kind of metal object at 30,000 feet high. And so, I think, somewhere in us, certainly for me, there's some fear of flying, right. And, I think that it's also, you know, imagining the worst that it's a horrendous way to think of those last few moments of anybody's life to be in an airplane that is on a downward spiral. So, I think it's kind of something that we can all relate to, on some level, and some part of us all imagine that. And so, I think, you know, for me, and I think for most when you walk down that jetway, you think the person, the people who made this plane are looking out for our safety that, you know, the regulators, the FAA is doing everything they can do to protect us, that the Congress and the people we've elected are doing their job to make sure that the regulators are empowered to do their job. And in this case, they all failed us. And so, I think that there's a lot to be learned from, you know, the need to ask questions to be vigorous to make demands for all of us to ensure that, you know, these protections hold.

Matthew 07:33
I think - I completely agree. I certainly have, we all have, these fears of flying. But I think, one thing that struck me and I think the film captures it very well. And I was remembering back to when these crashes happened, even. And my - I must admit, I have to say, that I kind of bought into the Boeing story at first, because they had this impeccable reputation, didn't they? And I think many of us who, for whatever reasons would have thought well, yeah, you know, sure, Boeing says it's not a issue, you know, these accidents happen, but it was far from it, wasn't it? And it was kind of the - opening up - the sort of the revealing the actuality of what's been going on at Boeing for a while now.

Rory Kennedy 08:22
Well, you know, it was also another reason that I was compelled to make this film is that after these two planes crash, and they were, as one of our investigators say, in the film under eerily similar circumstances, you know, my expectation - and then they found the black boxes, and there was correlation between the crashes and all that - my expectation was that Boeing would get in front of this, be hugely apologetic, you know, it's like a red flag situation, you know, this has a kind of urgency to it and taking responsibility. We're going to ground this plane, we're going to do everything we can figure out what went wrong here, we're going to fix this, this is, you know, there's zero tolerance for this kind of thing. And they didn't really do that. It was much more about well, the pilots didn't respond the way we thought they would, you know, these pilots were international, how are they trained? There was that kind of thing going on. And it seemed very curious. And, you know, not what I wanted to hear from this company in this moment. So, I think that was also a kind of driving force for me is to really get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

Matthew 09:46
Yeah, yeah. No, I think in disparaging the pilots and - it's Lion Air, which is in Indonesia, it's Ethiopia Air, you know, it's almost, as you've pointed out, it kind of, they're not American. Well, not so much either weren't American, but almost this idea that these would be places or airlines that would not be capable of, you know, flying these planes or not be trained up. But have you - in doing, you know, this was well publicized, there were these congressional hearings. A lot of - you deal with the - you have the journalists from Wall Street Journal who broke some of the story. Is there anything you've unc - in doing this film, is there anything you've uncovered that wasn't necessarily public before? What has maybe struck you the most in actually making the film?

Rory Kennedy 10:42
Yeah, well, we were making the film as the story was still unfolding. It was really important to me to, you know, I always think about the word 'documentary' because - and sort of the origin of that, the document, right. So, I always try to use source material when I'm making a film like this, and whether that's documents, actually, or the people who are on the front lines of this story. And hearing from them as things are unfolding, what they're seeing and what their understanding is. And so, you know, this film really showcases the folks who were in the middle of this story, who were on the frontlines of it. So, whether it's Congressman DeFazio, who led the investigation, the biggest investigation in Congress's Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history. Andy Pasztor, who was the journalist who chased down the story, from The Wall Street Journal, Michael Stumo, whose daughter tragically died in the second crash, the Ethiopian crash, and became, you know, an advocate, or the folks who are actually at Boeing working on the airplane and helping us understand what the decisions were made at that time. And then the documents, I think, you know, they're - part of the story, too, was that there was such a saturation, there was so much coming out. So, part of my job is weeding through that and really finding the material which is the most important and bringing that to the surface. It's also a story that played out over the course of a couple years, right. So, to synthesize it into a 90 minute experience for people. Because you sort of can trickle in a little information here, a little information there. And when you see it all together, I think it tells a much different story. And then I would just add, you know, you could have read about this story, but there's something about seeing the family members in particular, seeing them, you know, with Muilenberg at Congress and how he's not looking into their eyes and looking back at them, and they're holding these posters up of their children, that's so powerful, and such a deep reminder of what the actual stakes are in this story, you know, that these people died, that they lost their family. So, I think kind of the emotional thread is something that is quite original in this take and kind of what we explore in this film.

Matthew 13:40
Yeah. And you mentioned Michael Stumo, and the father of Samya Rose. I mean, these are some of the heroes of this tale, if we have heroes, aren't they? Could you tell us more about that? Because they didn't take no for an answer, did they, many of them, in terms of continuing to push ahead for answers.

Rory Kennedy 14:01
Yeah, they, I mean, the family members, you know, have been so extraordinary. And I just have such admiration for them. Michael Stumo, you know, he lost his just beautiful daughter who had committed herself to global health and really making the world a better place. There were so many people on both of these airplanes that were really extraordinary activists, you know, leaders, people who were committed to making their surroundings and the people, you know, less suffering in the world. So, it's just such an enormous loss on that level, but to have lost, you know, for Michael, his child in this way is just completely unimaginable and then to learn that it was largely the result of a company and, you know, a group of people who were driven by profits, and willing to risk his daughter's life to make more money. I mean, it's hard to imagine how you just don't get consumed by anger, honestly, in a situation like that. But, somehow, he's managed to kind of redirect all of those emotions, in this extraordinary way of, you know, really holding Congress to account to make sure that we find out exactly what happened. And continuing on that effort, even today, you know, and sacrificing so much of his own life. I mean, there's one point in the film where Michael talks about how he's had to tell this story, you know, 54 times to members of Congress. And each time it's traumatic, I mean, part of my hope with this film is that he can show the film, and he doesn't have to keep telling the story.

Matthew 16:03
I mean, I was gonna ask you that. I mean, because you're making them relive it yet again, by...

Rory Kennedy 16:08
Right, and I felt very responsible for that. And it, you know, it's never something that I ask easily of anybody, because I appreciate the trauma that it can induce in people. In this instance, I really did feel like the film could achieve, you know, along with their efforts, and everybody else's efforts, could help to achieve something significant, you know, that was always my hope with it, and to help people be aware, you know, far and wide, of what happened, because there may be, you know, there, obviously, some people who follow this story as it was happening, but there are many people in this country, around the world, who didn't follow the story, right, and this allows it to be, I think, a little bit more accessible. And so, really, part of my hope is that it will, you know, serve in some way to tell the story so that these family members don't have to keep doing it.

Matthew 17:11
Indeed, and I guess there's also this, I mean, there's many strain - you know, threads through all this, but we also have this complic - too strong a word - but complicity of the FAA in all this, don't we? I mean, that was a, I think, for me, at least, that was fairly enlightening that I hadn't necessarily expected.

Rory Kennedy 17:30
Yeah. Well, I think, to me, you know, people often ask, what's the thing that was most damning that we, you know, found in the making of this film. And I would say that the TARAM report, which was supported by the FAA, and was a technical report that came out after the first crash, and before the second crash, that concluded that this aircraft had a likelihood of crashing, catastrophic crashes, fifteen times over the course of its lifetime, which would average out to once every two years. Catastrophic crash means that the plane would crash and everybody on it would die. And that the FAA and Boeing, made the decision after that first crash, to keep the plane up in the air, with the hope that they would be able to fix it before one of these next crashes happened. And so, they were basically banking on this and betting against human lives, because of financial interest to keep that plane up in the air. And, you know, the FAA was complicitous in that decision, Boeing was a part of that, you know, they were the drivers of that choice. So, that to me, you know, especially when you think about Michael Stumo and all the other family members who had children, or husbands or wives or mothers or daughters on that plane the horror of that is unspeakable.

Matthew 19:22
And, I mean, I think probably the answer maybe it's very obvious and very simple but what drives people to make decisions like that? I mean, we all fly. Most of us do, at least. We all have family. We all, you know, to see something like that, that the likelihood of there being catastrophic accidents on numerous occasions, and then just to keep the planes in the air.

Rory Kennedy 19:47
That, my friend, is a question for those executives of Boeing. I mean, I cannot in my soul of souls answer that question.

Matthew 19:58
I mean, it's not like they're a poorly paid, and they're - you know, it's - yeah, well, I think that's probably the best way of putting it because it's just hard to fathom it at all.

Rory Kennedy 20:12
I do not understand what would drive a decision like that, you know, I mean, Muilenberg, who was the head of the company, the CEO, during this time, he was asked to leave by the board, he wasn't even fired, he was asked to leave. And he walked away with 62 million dollars. You know, I don't understand that decision, either. You know, I mean, you know, I think a lot of people watch this story, and there's this disconnect, because 346 people died. Boeing is responsible, Boeing and the executives there and the management, made a series of decisions that are very clearly driven by the desire to make profit and to make money. And 346 people die, and nobody goes to prison. And none of the management is really held to account. So, why is it, you know, if you went and killed one person, you'd probably spend the rest of your life in prison. Why is a corporation protected? Why are the people who run corporations protected? What is that? And what kind of priority is that? Why should corporations be held to different standards than human beings and the human beings who run those corporations? Why?

Matthew 21:43
Yeah, and I guess that raises the question, are you surprised there's not even a - why isn't there a bigger outcry, public outcry, about these sort of things?

Rory Kennedy 21:51
Well, there's a huge public outcry. If you go on Twitter, it's an unprecedented - I mean, Newsweek just did a piece on the response to the film around the world and Twitter's going off on it. But, you know, again, it's just that, you know, but meanwhile, Boeing's stock is going up, right, so, how out of touch is Wall Street? And how much valuation they're putting in this company, when you're having such an outcry from people around the world who are outraged, but that's - so, you know, I think that disconnect, I mean, it's also - it's like, during Covid, you know, all these people are losing their jobs, the economy is sinking, and Wall Street's just going up and up and up, like what? How disconnected is that entity from the rest of us? And what does that mean? And how can we make more of, you know, how can we get that in more of an alignment?

Matthew 22:56
Sounds like the subject of another doc, that you're gonna have to make. But I guess to - maybe one last point on this is that in the end, I mean, Boeing has only received barely a slap on the wrist from this, isn't that correct?

Rory Kennedy 23:12
Yeah. I mean, the Department of Justice, you know, had a case and they fined Boeing 2.5 billion dollars. But, you know, I think that was 4% of their - the money that they made that particular year, right. So, it sounds like a lot of money, but in the grand scheme of things, it's - Congressman DeFazio, who led the investigation, called it a slap on the wrist, in terms of, like, its impact on Boeing. And a lot of that money, when you kind of dig into it, was money that they were paying to the airlines for grounding the plane. So, it was the cost of not really delivering an entity that was guaranteed to fly. So, a fraction of that cost actually went to the families themselves. And there was an agreement in there that if Boeing didn't do anything else that was, you know, at this level of damning that there would be no - they would be protected from a criminal prosecution. So, nobody would be held accountable. So, you know, there's a - I think from the - I don't want to speak on behalf of the families but I think many of the families and many other people felt like that was not again in alignment with the horrors of what happened.

Matthew 24:40
I think that takes us to a point to give our listeners a break. We'll be right back with Rory Kennedy. Downfall: The Case against Boeing is the film now streaming on Netflix.

Factual America midroll 24:53
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the MovieMaker podcast. That's all one word: MovieMaker, where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in, to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their movie making secrets, and behind the scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now, back to Factual America.

Matthew 25:20
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning filmmaker Rory Kennedy. She's just come out with a film produced and directed, Downfall: The Case against Boeing. It's now streaming on Netflix. We were just talking about the slap on the wrist that Boeing's received and other things related to that. I mean, maybe you've kind of alluded to it already, but when you are, you know, as a filmmaker, when you're thinking about the next film you're going to make, what attracted you to this story? Why did you want to document this, and now? Because I guess you have, you probably have your choice of projects you could work on?

Rory Kennedy 26:01
Yeah, well, I mean, like everybody else, so many other people in the world, I fly. And I really, I mean, it was really following the story of the two airplanes crashing, them being, you know, the same airplane, new airplanes. No weather conditions, you know, as Andy Pasztor, journalist says, under eerily similar circumstances. And 346 people are dead. And yet, the response from Boeing, in the wake of that was to really focus on blaming the pilots, it seemed. So, I felt like there was a lot more going on here that deserves some attention. I mean, part of it was to get to the bottom of it to understand what happened and to - in an effort to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Matthew 26:59
Yeah. So that's, in essence, that's what you would also like the legacy of this film to be, is that safe to say? That people see this and then take action.

Rory Kennedy 27:11
I hope that people see this and take action. And, you know, that action can take a lot of different forms. And the film doesn't advocate a particular action, in part because, you know, what I want to do is really lay down the facts of the story to show what happened. And then people see those facts and you respond in different ways. I saw these facts. I, as a documentary filmmaker, decided to make a documentary about it, right. Andy Pasztor as a journalist saw the facts, and he decided to chase down this story for almost two years. DeFazio, the congressman, decided he was going to run an investigation. So, you know, other people might be activists and go out into the street, other - you know, so, I think we all have to kind of figure out what is our path to making and demanding the changes individually, but I do think that the world's gonna be a better place if we're all out there demanding it.

Matthew 28:15
Speaking of the world, I wanted to look at, if you don't mind, if we look ahead a bit, in terms of - am I right to understand - based on IMDb - do you have a film about World War Two refugees in the works, coming up?

Rory Kennedy 28:32
I do. I have a film that I am working on right now about the global refugee crisis.

Matthew 28:39
So, you know, we're eight days into war in Ukraine. Could you have ever have imagined how timely this - I mean, obviously, there's been Syrian refugees and refugees from the Middle-East. But could you have ever imagined that war was going to be raging again in Europe, when you started to make this film?

Rory Kennedy 28:57
I didn't. I really, I thought we had gone beyond that, honestly. It's just such an outrage and such a disappointment and, you know, I just - I'm really disgusted by Putin and his decision to go after this, you know, wonderful, beautiful country and the Ukrainian people and kill so many people. It's horrendous. I mean, as of, I think, yesterday, there were 650,000 people who were refugees as a result of this already. Their projection is that it's going to be between three and five million people. You know, so it's gonna really put a lot of strain on a system that's already, you know, we have 26.5 million refugees in the world today. 80 million displaced people, so, you know, it is, for a whole range of reasons, enormous disappointment.

Matthew 30:10
And, I mean, I hate to - because it just has just started. And it is such a horrific set of events that are happening right now. So, I guess it's kind of hard to ask questions that seem a bit cold in response, but is this something that you are already taking on board in terms of telling this story that you're working on, in terms of the refugees? I guess you can't help but include it in your project.

Rory Kennedy 30:35
Yeah, no, it's definitely something that we're focusing on. So, you know, and, of course, the Afghanistan situation occurred also, while we were editing this, so the film, you know, keeps opening up again, as we deal with, you know, more and more crises that are unfolding in front of us. But it's an important part of the story. And I think, you know, what we're really looking at in this film is Western wealthy countries responses to the refugee crisis over time, and looking at World War Two in the context of initially being a refugee crisis, that the Jewish people in Germany in particular, were trying to find a place to go. Hitler had said, Okay, fine, they can leave. But there were no countries that would accept them. Very few countries would accept them, right. So, and then after World War Two, we kind of came together with the United Nations and global refugee conference to agree to terms of, you know, if people were in jeopardy, they were facing something that could risk their lives in their own country, that they would be accepted in one of our countries. And we've really failed in that obligation. And even now, with the Ukrainian situation, you know, I think it's curious, and I would encourage all of us to monitor, you know, because everybody's saying their hearts go out, and they're empathetic, and they're outraged. But who's going to open their doors, right. And how much are - you know, Poland is the neighboring country, how much are we going to support Poland for doing that? Britain, last I heard, they were saying, well, they can come here, if they have relatives who are already in our country. The United States, I'm not seeing opening our doors in any significant way, yet. So, I hope that changes. But, you know, let's see how many of these wealthy Western countries really open their doors in significant ways to the Ukrainian people. My hope is that we do. And then, you know, it then begs another question, which is, okay, which my hope is that we do this with the Ukrainians. But then, and we're certainly doing it more than we did with Afghanistan, or with Syria. And how much of this is based on, Oh, well, these people look a little bit more like us, right. And we can relate, is that going on here? And what are kind of some of the racist undertones of some of the policies and responses? So, I think, all of those questions are worth considering and keeping an eye on.

Matthew 33:36
And I guess, may I ask, I guess now it's getting harder to say, but roughly, when are you hoping to release this film?

Rory Kennedy 33:46
Well, exactly, it keeps opening up. So, my hope is that it will be sometime in the fall or winter of next year.

Matthew 33:58
Okay, so of 2023.

Rory Kennedy 34:01
Yeah, probably in, like, the winter of 2023. So, in, like, eighteen months from now.

Matthew 34:08
Okay. Okay. I see. Okay. Well, we look for - I mean, I think that...

Rory Kennedy 34:12
But don't quote me on that!

Matthew 34:13
No, we won't quote you. I know there's - no, it's just great to have a filmmaker who can talk about a future project. They all almost always say, Well, I've got something but I can't really talk about it at the moment. So, it's great to be able to discuss it, and I also just happen to come across it, and it just - it's such a timely issue that we all need to consider and to discuss, so, I'm so glad you're making that.

Rory Kennedy 34:39
Thank you.

Matthew 34:42
Do you have anything else in the works?

Rory Kennedy 34:46
Well, I do have another project, but I'm not allowed to go into detail on that one. Another documentary I'm doing with Netflix. And then, I've also started something called The Climate Emergency Fund a couple years ago, which is a foundation that supports activists, who are causing a bit of disruption in the effort to protect our climate and our world. So, we basically, we raise money, and then we give it to activists who go out in the street and do things to make sure that we're really focused on this issue.

Matthew 35:34
That's interesting. I saw an interview with John Kerry, actually, just was filmed about a week or so ago, where he basically said - well, this is before the invasion, but even so he said, Russia, Ukraine, notwithstanding that was still, let's not forget that still probably the biggest issue facing us as humankind. And so, it's obviously for the very moment, at the moment, probably taking a bit of a backseat in terms of people's consciousness, but I think it's obviously a very, very important thing.

Rory Kennedy 36:04
Yes. And the IPCC, which is the International conglomeration of climate scientists just came out with another report in the last week that is really showing, you know, the devastation that climate change is having, and wreaking across the world right now, to literally billions of people, and the prediction that that's only going to get worse, unless we do something about it, but we really have to do it now. And, you know, you see, it really shouldn't take a backseat to Ukraine and Russia, because it's all the same thing, right, because Russia has so much of the energy source, right, and so, how much are we going to really cut off Russia? How much is Russia going into the Ukraine have to do with energy? And, you know, what can we do to reduce our reliance on that source of energy and move towards solar and wind and, you know, sources of energy that are environmentally more helpful.

Factual America midroll 37:19
And it's the Russian permafrost, that's also melting, that's releasing all kinds of - releasing methane into the atmosphere that's also contributing to global warming,

Rory Kennedy 37:28
Yes. [inaudible] more, you know, potent than carbon, and is a significant concern. So, I think there's, you know, it's still all in the mix, and then you see these bombs going off, and the environmental damage just done in a warzone situation. So, you know, obviously, first and foremost is our love and empathy and compassion for those folks who are being harmed and killed, you know, and it is just horrendous. But I think there are a lot of issues in the mix here that we need to be focused on.

Matthew 38:12
Well, and I think you're helping us focus on them. So, I do appreciate your efforts on that front, and, say, unfortunately, it looks like we've - I think we've come to the end of our time together. So, just wanted to thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. It's very much appreciated. I would love if once these other docs come out, we'd love to have you on again, if we haven't scared you off. And just to thank Rory Kennedy, again, award winning filmmaker of Downfall: The Case against Boeing, streaming on Netflix. Rory, thank you for coming on to Factual America.

Rory Kennedy 38:48
Thanks for having me. Great talking with you.

Factual America midroll 38:51
It's great talking with you. Take care, and stay safe.

Rory Kennedy 38:55
All right, you too.

Speaker 1 38:57
If something's not right, you need to find it and get it fixed or get it corrected. To ensure safety, finding things was what you're supposed to do. But instead of fixing problems, everything was about speed. Everything was about getting stuff done. Let's move it. Let's get it done. You can't stop, you can't slow down.

Speaker 2 39:18
Used to be when you raise your hand and say we got a problem here, they would say, Yeah, you're right. We're gonna fix it. After the merger with McDonnell Douglas, Airbus coming on, Boeing quit listening to their employees. So, every time I'd raise my hand say, Hey, we got a problem here. They would attack the messenger and ignore the message.

Matthew 39:47
I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 40:28
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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