Reframing Marilyn Monroe's Legacy

Marilyn Monroe almost requires no introduction. The iconic star of the silver screen still resonates with the viewing public even 60 years after her untimely death. But do we need to rethink her legacy or how she's been portrayed?

Acclaimed documentary filmmaker Karen McGann certainly thinks so. Her new docu-series Reframed: Marilyn Monroe rethinks the legacy of one of the greatest icons of the 20th century's popular culture.

Although in the media she was portrayed in a certain light, in reality Marilyn may have been a feminist trailblazer well ahead of her time. 

In the CNN docu-series, Karen explored the strategic ways Marilyn pushed her career forward, the intelligence behind her persona, and the complex nature of her life.

“We think we know the story of Marilyn Monroe, we have a very fixed point of view of her, and this documentary is about looking at her story from a more feminist perspective.” - Karen McGann

Time Stamps:

00:00 - The trailer for Reframed: Marilyn Monroe.
01:58 - When the film will be released globally.
02:47 - What Reframed: Marilyn Monroe is all about and how it reframes Marilyn’s life.
04:58 - The ignorance Karen had about Marilyn before making the film and what she learned along the way.
08:36 - How Marilyn strategically pushed her career forward and how she acquired her name.
12:39 - The intelligence Marilyn had behind her Marilyn Monroe persona.
15:26 - How Marilyn responded to naked photos of her being released.
17:35 - Marilyn’s skill with handling the press and the different sides to her story.
21:03 - The complex nature of Marilyn’s life and how she was more than just a victim.
23:58 - The narrative around JFK and Marilyn’s relationship.
26:06 - How Marilyn Monroe died and why it was presented to the public in a certain way.
27:56 - How the idea for the project came about and how Karen became involved in the production.
30:35 - Why they used so many of Marilyn’s voice recordings in the docu-series.
32:19 - The main challenges they faced in making the docu-series.
34:31 - The difference between making a docu-series and a feature-length film.
36:17 - The next project Karen is working on about brain health.

Resources:

Reframed: Marilyn Monroe (2021)
The Many Lives of Marilyn Monroe by Sarah Churchwell
The MovieMaker Podcast
Raw TV
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Karen McGann:

Website
IMDb

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 88: Reframing Marilyn Monroe's Legacy

Karen McGann 00:00
My name is Karen McGann. I'm a filmmaker from London, and I directed Reframed: Marilyn Monroe.

Speaker 1 00:07
Marilyn Monroe knew that she was more than just a pretty face.

Speaker 2 00:12
She wanted control of her own destiny.

Speaker 3 00:14
It's frustrating that people can't think about her in terms of her intellect.

Speaker 4 00:18
Marilyn challenges what it means to have agency as a woman.

Matthew 00:24
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers, and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome acclaimed documentary filmmaker, Karen McGann, one of the directors of the CNN docu-series Reframed: Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe almost requires no introduction. The iconic star of the silver screen still resonates with the viewing public even 60 years after her untimely death. But do we need to rethink her legacy? Or how she's been portrayed? Karen certainly thinks so. Stay tuned and learn how Marilyn Monroe may have been a feminist trailblazer, well ahead of her time. Karen, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Karen McGann 01:12
Things are very well, and thank you for having me. It's surprisingly bright and sunny in London today. So, that's nice.

Matthew 01:21
I'm up north, but it's bright and sunny here, too. I think we're all foolishly thinking spring is on its way. But again, I want to thank you for coming on to Factual America. The film is Reframed: Marilyn Monroe. Released in January 2022, it's a CNN docu-series. I gather people in the US, our listeners in the US, can watch it on whatever CNN streaming service, is that right? And when might it be released more widely?

Karen McGann 01:57
We don't have details on when it might be released more widely. But I believe there is a plan for that to happen, so that there will be a European release at some time, or a global release. But for the moment, it's just in America, and its viewers who are based in the United States who have access to it. But we're very hopeful. And I think there is a larger audience for this as well. I think it's kind of globally relevant. So, I'm very hopeful.

Matthew 02:24
Yeah, I know there's a portion of the docu-series that even goes into that a bit, that shows how she made a splash internationally. So, as I already said she, and it's kind of an odd question to ask about someone who's so iconic, but in terms of your film, or your docu-series, what is Reframed: Marilyn Monroe all about?

Karen McGann 02:47
We think we know the story of Marilyn Monroe. We think we know who she is. She's the greatest icon of the 20th century, in many ways, and we have a very fixed point of view of her. And this documentary was about looking at her story from a more feminist point of view. And kind of dismantling the myth, really. I think there is this view of her that's widely held that she was this tragic victim, that she was a passive person, who was kind of used and abused by men, that she was exploited. And, you know, when we do that we deny someone a personality, we deny them a character, and we deny them a sense of their own agency. And I think that was really what the film was about, to kind of shift the angle a little bit and look at our story with fresh eyes, and look at it within the context of the 21st century, as well, and everything we've experienced in the last four or five years with the #metoo movement. And just going, there is another version of her story, and you don't know it, so, let's explore that a little bit. There's another kind of perspective on this, that isn't Marilyn the tragic victim; she's a much more complex, and much more interesting, character. And in exploring her story, we kind of explore the story of what it means to be a woman, as well. And that was kind of very much the impetus behind it.

Matthew 04:23
I think - well, I completely agree. I've seen all four episodes, and I certainly opened my eyes to some things. I mean, from your own personal perspective, before we go into some of these myths and maybe go and try to right the wrongs, what were your impressions going in? I mean, maybe growing up, you maybe - we all had different impressions of Marilyn Monroe, and then even going into this project, did you see her as much as a feminist icon as you did after doing all these interviews and research?

Karen McGann 04:58
I was surprised at my ignorance, really, and was surprised by how little I really knew about her. And I don't think that's unusual. You know, I think I'd always liked her, I thought she was, you know, extraordinary as a presence, you know, her sense of her ability to kind of capture the camera and to kind of inhabit a character on screen I admired hugely, but I think I didn't really have a sense of her agency at all, you know, and I think I'd swallowed - you know, we absorb things culturally, in a very unconscious way. We don't even realize we're doing it. And it wasn't like I didn't respect and like her. It's just, I hadn't thought to question what I believed I knew about her. And it was a fascinating process, really, to then try and kind of erase all of those preconceptions, and to kind of take on board her story through different eyes, because I think it doesn't matter if you're male or female. You know, like I said, we absorb these kind of messages in our culture, and we don't even realize we're doing it. And that was what was so fascinating about the process as well. And not only does it awaken your awareness in terms of this single story, but it has a reverberating effect, and that awakens your awareness about lots of things that you may have - messages you may have received, and how you perceive stories. And I think for a filmmaker, that's a really fantastic thing to be aware of, and go, Hold on a second, you know, do I really understand this story? Do I interrogate? You know, that process of interrogation and questioning about what we believe is the truth, or, what really happened. So, it was a really, like, wonderful process, and very enriching as well, you know, to try and kind of - and very, you know, there is sadness in her story, but there's an invigorating side to it as well, you know, and you look at kind of everything in that first episode, for example, you know, this extraordinary will, you know, this person who'd basically come from nothing, who just kept on going and wouldn't take no for an answer, and was inventive and smart, and then clever and strategic in how she tried to find a way into an industry that, you know, was not naturally open to her. And I found that fascinating and very inspiring, actually.

Matthew 07:40
I mean, I think you raise a very good point. Both you and I were born long after she, unfortunately, passed away. But just growing up, you pick up on these narratives that almost become caricatures of themselves and even part of, I don't know, just the social milieu, if you will, I mean, but you bring up, I think, just there a very interesting point: this sort of strategic view that she had, I mean, you kind of go through the myths, I mean, isn't one myth that she was this passive player in the story of her life? And then what you find is that, actually, she was anything but that type of person. I mean, maybe you can say a little bit more about how she tried to climb the corporate ladder of the studio system, and she knew how to play the game, and really did have a strategic view of her career.

Karen McGann 08:34
Absolutely. I mean, she, you know, the first rung on the ladder, in Hollywood terms, was being a contract player with one of the big studios. And basically, if you're a contract player, you know, your options were limited in some ways, but it was the first rung of the ladder, and you were bit parts, walk-on parts, in movies, you know, but what she did from the beginning was, she found a way - she worked extraordinarily hard - she found a way to kind of make friends with everyone within the studio system. She was arriving there very early in the morning, she was speaking to the press department, she was speaking to costume, she was speaking to - and this isn't necessarily in the film, but this is background. And we have, like, a very, you know, we tip our cap to this, but she was very actively trying to better herself, better her acting, understanding how to use, how to interact with the camera, understanding how to, basically when opportunity knocked, to step up. One really good example of her sense of agency, and kind of, really - and her smarts as well - is in how she acquired her name. The conventional narrative is, big studio boss gives her this name and she is then from that point branded, you know, she's got no sense of agency and no investment in that name. And she's, you know, she is essentially - her identity's removed, in a way. But while the Marilyn part was a suggestion from the studios, the Monroe part was from her because her mother's maternal name was Monroe. And I think it's just a really interesting choice that she made. She wanted something of herself. She wanted something of her own identity that she was bringing to the party. And, it's that. And I think it's striking as well, it's her mother's maiden name, and I find that really compelling. So, from the beginning, she's got a really - she's a stakeholder in her name. She's not passively receiving it. She's going, No, I want this. And I just feel that's a really striking kind of example of how she, yes, she did what the studio wanted her to do, but she found a way I think, to do it that gave her a sense of agency and investment, you know, that wasn't passive.

Matthew 11:09
Yeah. And I think, I mean, putting it even more in perspective, she was only what 19, 20 years old when this is happening. So, it's not even like, oh, she goes through this whole process for 10 years being the sort of, as you say, studio bit player and going through the - all the hoops that you have to go through but she, from the very beginning, recognizes that she at least had the ability to - she had leverage.

Karen McGann 11:40
She had leverage. Yeah, she had leverage.

Matthew 11:44
And which strikes me is that another kind of, get to a point, is that she strike - in all this she strikes us as very intelligent. And yet, what would be the narrative we all kind of grew up with, which is that she's this blonde bombshell airhead, right?

Karen McGann 12:00
Yeah.

Matthew 12:01
And that she played a lot of those characters.

Karen McGann 12:03
Yes.

Matthew 12:04
Because that's what the studio system gave her, in many ways. But, you know, she's going to the Actors Studio. I mean, I think it's great, you got Ellen Burstyn on there. She's doing amazingly well for a woman in her late 80s, and a classic, I mean, amazing actress. But, so, maybe we could say about - I mean, she was not, you know, she's not just - as one of your talking heads says - she's not just T and A. She's not just, you know, she is an actress, and a damn good one.

Karen McGann 12:37
She absolutely is. And I think one of the main things that we were exploring in this series as well is, you know, Marilyn Monroe was a persona that she developed as well, you know, she developed this persona. She did the dumb blonde act, but it was just that. It was the dumb blonde act. And she knew that this was something that an audience wanted. And she presented them with it. And it was very hard because she had - but she had enormous natural intelligence, was a very naturally witty person as well, extremely curious, she read widely from a young age. And there's, like, a lovely list where you can kind of see online, I'm sure, it's really readily available, all the books that were in Marilyn's library, and you can just go through kind of the list of authors: James Joyce, Dostoevsky, you know, all the great kind of 20th century figures of literature are there, and she had that natural curiosity. And that was from a very young age. And that was pre-Arthur Miller, as well. I think one of the myths as well is, like, oh, when she got with Arthur Miller, that's when this kind of, you know, trying more serious side came, that's simply not true. So, she had this very act of natural intelligence. She wasn't widely educated. She wasn't well educated, but she was very curious. And I think her wit is something that is underappreciated as well. She had great natural wit. And she was able to perform very well in interviews. You know, she could - she understood how to give enough of herself, but not too much. She understood how to be charming. She understood how to be evasive as well. And I think, you know, I think we get confused and we all get confused with the Marilyn Monroe persona and who she kind of was as a person as well. You know, I think actors, actresses, performers, you know, there is the public self, there is often a gap between the public self and the private self, and I think there was with Marilyn as well.

Matthew 14:53
And you, I think in one of the episodes you talk, as I think you've already mentioned, she was hanging out with the people in the publicity department, and she really seemed to understand the public and what the public wanted. And I think that's a good example, the whole situation with the nude photos that came out. The studio wanted her to say one thing, and she just, I mean, it was - it's quite amazing for the time. She could have easily said, Okay, I'll apologize or it's not me. But she came out and just said, No. And I'm actually not ashamed of what I've done.

Karen McGann 15:24
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's yet another example as well, well, if she was this passive victim, who was basically controlled by the men around her, by the studios, she would have said yes, and she would have denied - she was very early in her career at that point, you know, and it could have been, you know, the kiss of death. But she had enough wherewithal, and I think she had enough foresight as well, to know that, and enough self-possession, too, to go, No, I'm not going to refuse it. That's not a smart thing to do. But also, I don't want to. And I think it was a punt on her part. And I think she managed to, you know, she was very media savvy. She arranged that interview with Florabel Muir, where she, you know, can have this confessional, where she kind of revealed all this information. Studio didn't want her to do it. But she understood how to get the story out there in a way that was likely to be a little bit more sympathetic to her, you know, and I do think that was extremely smart. And we talk about her awareness of her image. And, I think, you know, it's one of the things that is said in the documentary, I think Amber Tamblyn and Mira Sorvino both mentioned this, her ability to understand how to brand herself and how to present herself is extraordinarily modern, you know, it is extraordinarily modern.

Matthew 16:52
Well, it's even, I mean, think about, because there's this period in her life where she sort of escapes to New York City, if that's possible, if you can escape to New York City, but - and then with the Greenes, and she, you know, she's subject of some bad press and things, and, so, you know, she didn't have a PR firm. She's her own PR firm and she orchestrates this interview with Edward R. Murrow who...

Karen McGann 17:19
Yeah.

Matthew 17:19
... if our listeners don't know, is, like, the - in the US - was, well, it was like talking to God, basically, back then. And so, it's straight from her, their house and everything, and that's just PR genius.

Karen McGann 17:33
It is. It is. And I think people don't give her credit for that. But that was all her. She did not have a team of people advising her, you know; she was, kind of, the kind of key figure in all of this and her relationship - she had strong relationships with the press - and, you know, I think I don't want to paint her as this kind of saintly, kind of - because I think that's been potentially one of the criticisms, kind of, of the series as well, but, you know, I think what we were doing was trying to kind of go, Look, there's another way of seeing all of this, and these are all the things that you don't know. And it's not about arguing, it's not about, it's not a conventional documentary in presenting kind of two sides of the story. It's very deliberately telling you, there's another version to this story, and the cast of characters and the women that we spoke to, they are choosing to look at Marilyn, reassess her motivations with this new information and from this new perspective, you know, but she is still a human being who makes mistakes as well. And I hope there's a little bit of that in the documentary, too. It's not meant to be a hagiography, but it is meant to kind of redress a pretty unfair imbalance that exists around her as a personality, as a character, as an icon.

Matthew 18:58
I think that brings us to a good point to give our listeners a short break here. We'll be right back with Karen McGann, one of the directors of Reframed: Marilyn Monroe, the CNN docu-series released last month.

Factual America midroll 19:12
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the moviemaker podcast. That's all one word: moviemaker, where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in, to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their moviemaking secrets, and behind the scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 19:40
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with acclaimed filmmaker, Karen McGann, one of the directors of Reframed: Marilyn Monroe, CNN docu-series released last month. You in the states can still find it on the CNN streaming services, and the rest of you just be on the lookout for it. It should be coming out globally in the near future. Karen, we were talking about what, you know, you didn't want, don't want the film to be a hagiography: she wasn't perfect. Maybe that's why we're still kind of looking at how, in the women experts and subjects you talk to and how they see Marilyn, and how kind of this new - I shouldn't say new but maybe a different way than certainly what many of us have been shown over the years. I mean, there was this, I guess this is also this element to the story of, you know, men took advantage of her, misused her, yet - I don't want to, I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say any more but it's not so much she flipped the power dynamic, maybe, but I mean, I think she kind of - there's more to this as well, it's not that she was just some victim, yet, you know, she obviously got into some situations that we're all kind of well aware of. Do you want to say something on that?

Karen McGann 21:00
Sure. I think it's complicated. And I think people, you know, people are nuanced, and contradictory and complex. And she is no different. But I think with a person, like - when you become a star of the level that Marilyn is, you start to become a character in a story that's created by other people. And when we tell stories, we simplify, often we lose subtlety, we have to focus in on a particular characteristic, in order to kind of tell the story. And I think that's what's happened with Marilyn. I don't think - yes, she had some pretty destructive kind of relationships, unhealthy relationships. Was she a victim of men sometimes? Maybe, you know, yes. But I don't think, it doesn't mean that she is this, she is a victim, that is her character. You know, in all our lives, there are times where we suffer, there are times where we don't, there are times where we're victims, there are times where we're not. And I think it's just a convenient, it's been a very convenient story, and I think a lot of it's come simply from, well, a lot of it has come from kind of the relationship that she had with JFK, the nature of that relationship, the relationship that she may or may not have had with his brother, Robert. And I think there's such a, what you have here is, you know, the clash of two greats, kind of 20th century American icons, you know, the dynasty of the Kennedy family and the kind of, you know, the huge kind of character of Marilyn, and persona of Marilyn Monroe. And when you bring through these forces together, well, you've got to tell a story. And I think there's - I think in the time as well, thinking about a married president, it's easier to make the story about he rejected her. And the fact is, I don't know that we know the truth, because there are so many different versions of the story.

Matthew 23:25
If you don't mind if I interrupt there, I mean, I think that's a very good point, because what I liked about, is you don't dwell on it. I mean, you know, let's face it, there could be whole, I'm sure people have done whole shows just about this. And it's because of what you said, because of the iconic president and the iconic Hollywood star. But it does seem - I mean, I think what you seem to show is like you say, we don't know for sure what happened, but you kind of make it sound like it's not what we've been led necessarily lead to believe it was, is that safe to say?

Karen McGann 23:57
Yeah, it is and I think one of the, you know, one of our interviewees, who's also a consultant on the series, Sarah Churchwell, she wrote a very interesting book called The Many Lives of Marilyn Monroe, which in many ways was a great inspiration for this series, because she was doing just that, she was looking at the story of Marilyn, and shifting, shifting the lens. It's a very, very rigorously researched, dense, brilliant book, and she kind of looks at this narrative around JFK and Marilyn and says, You know, a lot of it is to do with kind of, you know, contemporaneous attitudes towards women. You know, could anyone believe that Marilyn was the person who may have not taken this relationship seriously, because there are reports from the time that she had conversations with close friends who just said, I'm not in love with him. I'm just having fun. But that doesn't fit the story, you know, because, of course, she would want to be in love with the handsome president. And of course, who would then reject her. So, it's just another way of looking at the story, because there is evidence there that suggests it wasn't so. It's just, it doesn't fit with the narrative, so, it's been excluded. And, you know, those stories exist, and those comments, you know, were made by her, but it doesn't fit to think that she didn't fall in love with the president who was, you know, it's Camelot. And he's King Arthur. So...

Matthew 25:36
Yeah. And then this also ties into her untimely death, I guess, as well, which I thought was interesting. You have her - it's amazing. You get one of her close friends is still with us, Amy Greene, who, she says it's not a conspiracy. It's not the Kennedys. It wasn't anything else. It was just accidental death. She forgot she had taken a load of sleeping pills, and so she took a second dose. Is that what you believe as well, or...?

Karen McGann 26:05
Yeah, I think it was an accident. Yeah. You know, the fact is, we don't know, we don't really know what happened. But, you know, there are so many conspiracy theories around it. There are so many stories, and I think all of that - it's about feeding, you know, a cultural need for the narrative to be a certain way, because she's not a person, anymore, she's a character in a bigger story. And I do think from everything I've read, from people I've spoken to, I think Amy kind of said it, I think she - there is no doubt that she had a drug problem that she was addicted to medication, there is no doubt that that had a huge impact on her life. And I think the most likely explanation is that exactly as Amy said, she took the pills, she forgot to take the pills, and she took some more. I don't think she was murdered. Like, this is my opinion, you know, I just - I don't think she was murdered. I don't think there's a giant conspiracy. I think it's a very sad accident. I don't think she did it deliberately.

Matthew 27:13
It's a shame, too, because it would've been amazing to see how her career would have progressed because I - well, we'll talk some more about the actual making of the film, but I do find certainly the photos that you include, and you have some amazing archives and stuff, it's amazing, even those latter years in her life. I mean, she's only in her late 30s. But, you know, how she is herself maturing. And so, in that sense, as much as there is this narrative, it's a tragedy, and that's how all this kind of plays in it. In that sense, it is a tragedy, because she died way too soon. How did this project come about if we can pivot to that?

Karen McGann 27:55
This project was developed by a production company in London called RAW. And they had developed the project and the executive producer Sam Starbuck, who I'd known from many years ago, when we were both working for the BBC, she was looking for female directors, because it feels like you need to tell this story, you need to have women tell this story. And she asked me and another lady called - very great director - called Grace Chapman, who did the second and third episodes of the series. I did the first and the fourth episode. I'm very glad that I did because they are the stories that I'm - there was something quite beautiful about being there at the beginning of her life and being there at the end. And then Grace kind of was focused on kind of the movie years, really, and kind of exploring that. But she got us both involved. And I think, speaking for myself, and I'm sure, I think Grace has a similar point of view, I wasn't interested in just doing another Marilyn Monroe biography. The reason why this was interesting, was because it was trying to tell a slightly different story. And beyond, you know, it is about Marilyn Monroe, but I think there's a subtext and maybe a quite obvious kind of agenda in the film as well, which is to look at how we, as a society, have viewed women and kind of the boxes that we - both men and women - that we put ourselves in. And then that was a really kind of key thing about the project. And I know it was something that Sam and RAW were keen to kind of extract, to communicate, was something CNN I know were very kind of keen to have underpinning the series as well. It's not simply about - it is about Marilyn but there are lessons that we can learn from this story about how we treat women, how we view women, how we - what we foist upon women in terms of our expectations and preconceptions. And because of who she is, she's such a lightning rod for all of that, you know, and that was really kind of what was attractive about the project for all of us involved.

Matthew 30:18
And was part of that as well - was, I mean, you have audio of her speaking, and not just from her films, it was - has that been heard before, or, because I think that - was that new access that had been gained? Or...?

Karen McGann 30:33
It wasn't exclusive. I think there are probably, I don't think another documentary has used it, to - series has used to the extent that we have used it. And that was a very, you know, it's quite difficult going, how do you give, we wanted to give her a voice, basically, because her voice is the thing she's been deprived of in her own story. And so, we were really keen to just use this material as much as possible to give her, her actual voice. And so, that was from the beginning, it was trying to find all those ways of bringing that content in and giving her a sense of presence, rather than having her voice - her words voiced by someone else, that was something that we very deliberately didn't want to do. Because it felt once again, you know, we were creating a distance from the person and we're trying - we were - it was our attempt to try and get as close as possible to her, and to really insert her agency kind of into the show as well, because when you give someone a voice, you allow them to speak, then they have more sense of activity; you remove some of the passivity. And that was important.

Matthew 31:47
And they're very striking because they play into - not just play into - they are very revealing of this, of what we've already discussed about the film in terms of how she comes across, you know, and she is not just some dumb blonde, as so many of us may have been led to believe, for many years. I mean, what were the main challenges you faced in putting this doc together?

Karen McGann 32:17
I think the main challenge was trying to imbue each episode with an authentic sense of essence of who she was. Because we only know her through the movies. And that's her not as her, and in the few kinds of interviews that she gave, as well. You know, but you were trying to actually get to the real person when her iconography is everywhere in our world, and we have the story of her everywhere. That was the thing that I thought about most, you know, trying to kind of serve what felt was true about her when we only have, we have her story, removed. We have her story through books, we have her story through, you know, people like Amy Greene, who was one step away from her, through the voice recordings that she gave, through the few interviews, but even then, you know, you're not, you know, it's still a challenge to try and kind of dismantle, you know, everything you think you know about her and try and kind of present her as a living, breathing person. And I think that was one of the trickiest things to do. And I hope we've gotten close to it, you know, to try and kind of give her some of herself back, really.

Matthew 33:37
Yeah. Yeah. And at least, certainly, at least have, as you said, there's been certain ways we've seen her, now a different way of seeing her, at least fostering a - not so much a debate, but at least get people thinking about who this actually - who this person was, who still looms so large, even 60 years later, after her passing.

Karen McGann 34:02
Yes, absolutely.

Matthew 34:04
Well, I think we're about to - unfortunately, we're coming to the end of our time together, Karen, but I was just, I mean, this is a docu-series. You seem to be heavy on docu-series. Is this a particular - do you avoid features? Do you - or is it just that that's the way it sort of - do you like to have more time to sort of tell the story? What draws you to docu-series?

Karen McGann 34:30
I think, honestly, I'd love to do a feature and there have been various, you know - I think features are hard to get off the ground, honestly. But I think, I really enjoy the scope you get with a docu-series. I mean, I do really enjoy that. I enjoy how you can dig into a subject, and you can, you know, each episode is a chapter, so it's got a more - you can be a bit more novelistic in terms of you can show more, you can have more, you can have different moods, you can have different - you can pull focus on different things episode to episode. And I like the journey of each episode having its own different character, or its own, perhaps, sometimes, way of telling the story. And I find that really gratifying, actually. So, I do love the very broad canvas that you get with the series. But, you know, I think with the right subject, then a feature is amazing, and I'm sure I will do that at some point. It's just getting that right subject at the right time and the stars to align, you know, but in the meantime, you know, I'm very happy making docu-series, I think they're enormously gratifying. They're extraordinarily hard work as well, you know, but, you know, you invest time, you invest a lot of time when you make a series, and it lives with you for a long time as well. But there's a little more scope, I think, for experimentation, actually.

Matthew 36:09
Okay. And then speaking of all the stars aligning, and everything, what's next for you?

Karen McGann 36:17
I am in the edit on a documentary for National Geographic and Disney Plus. And it hasn't been announced, yet, so, I'll say a little bit about it. But I - NDA'd as most people are these days, what you can say or not, but it's a fascinating look at kind of longevity and brain health. But its rooted in a very kind of personal story. So, there's a character who's kind of taking us through the story, and kind of plunging into their own story. And there is kind of a bigger science story. So, I'm talking about - I'm making it sound, not quite what it is, but I'm just trying to kind of [inaudible] but not say too much.

Matthew 37:04
Have you done something that's more on the sort of science direction before?

Karen McGann 37:08
No, I haven't. And I was really surprised when they asked me to do it. But I think they wanted it to have a bit more of that human story in it. And I think that was why they asked me. It was about allowing the science story to exist. But it really being a human story that's taking you from beginning to end and just trying to find the balance between the two. So, I'm not a science specialist. My background is arts, literature, music, films. That's kind of where I come from. But I've got great science producers helping me out on that, keeping me on the straight and narrow, so I'm not misrepresenting anything.

Matthew 37:49
Well, it sounds extremely interesting. And we'll certainly keep an eye out for it. And do you have an idea about when it might drop, when we might be seeing it?

Karen McGann 37:58
Probably end of this year, I would imagine. Yeah, winter, I think winter this year. But no official date, just yet.

Matthew 38:05
Okay, well, listeners, please keep an ear out for that. Well, we have come to the end of our time, Karen. Just want to thank you again, Karen McGann, one of the directors of Reframed: Marilyn Monroe, the CNN docu-series that was released last month. So, thank you so much for coming on to Factual America, it was very much appreciated.

Karen McGann 38:08
Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you so much. It's a really lovely, really lovely experience.

Matthew 38:33
Well, I'm glad to hear that! It's always good to have immediate feedback. So, I really appreciate that. And hopefully, if we haven't scared you off, we can have you on again sometime. It would be a pleasure

Karen McGann 38:42
It would be my pleasure.

Matthew 38:43
All right. Well, thank you so much. And yes, enjoy the rest of your bright, beautiful English winter day.

Karen McGann 38:50
And you! Thanks so much, Matthew. Take care.

Matthew 38:53
I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England, in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 39:35
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk