I am Vanessa Guillen

Christy Wegener, director and producer of I Am Vanessa Guillen, joins Matthew Sherwood to tell the story of Private First Class Vanessa Guillen. 

In 2020, after suffering from sexual harassment by a superior, Vanessa was murdered by a fellow soldier at Fort Hood army base outside Killeen, Texas. In the months that followed, her family refused to let either their grief or the weight of the military silence them, and started a campaign to win justice for their sister and daughter, and all victims of sexual abuse in the military. Their campaign took them to the halls of power in Washington DC, and ultimately, success.

How did they do it? As Christy tells Matthew, the Guillens are ‘an incredibly close-knit family’, one motivated by a desire to ensure that no one ever again is forced to suffer as they have done. This absolute determination, guided by expert help from their lawyer, Natalie Khawam, allowed them to weather the storm of grief and failure, and provided a springboard to their success. Today, it continues to inspire them as Vanessa’s sister, Mayra, leads the I Am Vanessa Guillen Foundation, which advocates on behalf of military sexual abuse victims.

As Matthew Sherwood discovers, the US military has tried hard to deal with claims of harassment and assault within its ranks, but the military system itself remains antithetical to the demands of justice. Christy shares how the presence of cameras can help hold politicians to account, and how the Guillens managed to unite in their cause an otherwise hopelessly divided Capitol Hill.

I Am Vanessa Guillen is the story of a tragedy, of enduring love and courage, and the breaking of a cycle of silence and pain. 

“... we were just with them, and they were so willing to be vulnerable on camera.,, they didn't really even acknowledge our presence, which was good... they were very focused on their mission.” – Christy Wegener

Time Stamps

02:26 – Matthew introduces this week’s guest, Christy Wegener
04:06 – Christy explains what I Am Vanessa Guillen is about
06:42 – The Guillen family’s sense of foreboding and ability to express themselves
08:42 – The secret to the Guillen family’s strength in adversity
10:47 – The US military’s attempts to deal with sexual harassment and assault
12:34 – Fort Hood’s ‘toxic and notorious culture’
14:33 – Fighting for Vanessa in Washington DC
16:59 – How Christy became involved in the making of I Am Vanessa Guillen
21:07 – The importance of having cameras when talking to politicians
22:58 – What Mayra and Lupe Guillen are doing now
24:05 – The work still being done by Mayra Guillen to change the law
25:04 – Cecily Aguilar’s current status
26:13 – What Christy wants I Am Vanessa Guillen’s legacy to be
27:42 – Talking about the uncertainty of not knowing how the film would end
28:45 – What’s next for Christy

Resources

I Am Vanessa Guillen
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Christy Wegener

IMDb

More from Factual America:

Ghislaine Maxwell: Filthy Rich
Girl in the Picture: A 25-Year Mystery Solved
Scouting for Girls: Fashion's Darkest Secret

Interesting Reading from Factual America:

7 New Netflix Biopics to Look out for in 2023
17 New Documentaries Streaming in April 2023
Closed For Storm: The Abandoned Six Flags Theme Park
Documentaries Streaming in June 2023
New Documentaries Streaming in July 2023

Transcript for Factual America Episode 118: I am Vanessa Guillen

Matthew Sherwood 00:02
I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. This week it is my pleasure to welcome Christy Wegener, director and producer of the new Netflix documentary, I am Vanessa Guillen. Here's the trailer.

Speaker 1 00:14
Her case is grabbing headlines across the nation. People want to know where is Vanessa Guillen.

Speaker 2 00:20
Where's my sister? They know where she is, and I want them to speak up.

Speaker 3 00:24
This was not one of those cases the military could sweep under the rug.

Speaker 4 00:29
Vanessa has always been the bravest of all of us. Something was wrong with her the few months after she was stationed at Fort Hood.

Speaker 5 00:35
Not being able to sleep, losing weight. She would tell me that things weren't what they seem.

Speaker 6 00:41
[She said, "I have been harassed by a superior over at Fort Hood. It's nothing more than a place of corruption and eviI.]

Speaker 7 00:48
I called a staff sergeant, and he's like, We don't know anything about her. You guys don't have cameras? Nothing? And they were like, No.

Speaker 8 00:55
The military did not give a damn.

Speaker 9 00:57
Fort Hood seems to cultivate the worst of the worst.

Speaker 10 01:01
A lot of missing soldiers. A lot of dead soldiers. A lot of bad there.

Speaker 11 01:07
She was in the army. She's supposed to be safe there.

Speaker 12 01:09
[I texted. No answer. "How come? These animals won't look for my child. I have to look for my daughter myself."]

Speaker 13 01:16
The Guillen family were not gonna stay quiet.

Speaker 14 01:18
The Hispanic culture is a sleeping giant. All the Guillen family woke it up.

Speaker 15 01:25
People using my sister as a resemblance of themselves.

Speaker 16 01:28
Hashtag I am Vanessa Guillen. I remember saying she is us.

Speaker 17 01:34
It kept growing and growing.

Speaker 18 01:41
Sexual assault scandals are the new norm for the military.

Speaker 19 01:44
Clearly an epidemic.

Speaker 20 01:46
We had no other choice, but to go and fight for legislation under my sister's name.

Speaker 21 01:51
The military counts on survivors and their families staying quiet, and they miscalculated dramatically.

Speaker 22 01:58
If we got Congress to listen then we can get Congress to pass the bill.

Speaker 23 02:01
This is our last chance.

Speaker 24 02:03
They do not support the full Vanessa Guillen Act. We have to really push on them.

Speaker 25 02:07
This is not a Republican, Democratic issue! This is not a race issue! This is a human issue, so it should be everyone's issue!

Matthew Sherwood 02:26
That was the trailer for the new Netflix documentary, I am Vanessa Guillen. And this is Factual America. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Vanessa Guillen was 20 years old when she was found murdered at a US Army base. Rather than submit to silence her family fought for justice and change. Join us as we talk with director and producer, Christy Wegener, about the bravery and courage of Vanessa's family, as they took on the US Army, and brought their fight to the halls of power in Washington DC to ensure that justice is served, not just for Vanessa, but for all victims of sexual abuse. Ultimately, the tragic story has an uplifting ending, and helps us reflect on what being part of a family truly means. Stay tuned. Christy Wegener, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Christy Wegener 03:21
Really good. We've had an incredible reaction to the film. It's been out for a couple of weeks. And, yeah, we've been blown away.

Matthew Sherwood 03:31
Yes. Just to remind our listeners and viewers we're talking about I am Vanessa Guillen. It's streaming now on Netflix. So, yeah, again, welcome. Thank you for joining us and congratulations. And I thank you for bringing this story to the screen. It's very much appreciated. I really, really enjoyed watching it. Maybe you can tell, you know, how we usually kick things off is, maybe explain to our listeners what I am Vanessa Guillen is all about; maybe a brief synopsis.

Christy Wegener 04:06
Yeah, absolutely. This is a film that really explores the pervasive issue of sexual misconduct in the military, which has become an epidemic. And we tell this, we look at this issue through the case of Vanessa Guillen, who was a soldier stationed at a base in Texas called Fort Hood. Vanessa was being sexually harassed by other soldiers at the base, her sort of chain of command, and she ultimately was murdered by another soldier on the base. This happened in April of 2020, right when Covid hit, and her family - I mean, at the time Vanessa just went missing. No one knew she had been murdered. No one knew what happened. Because the soldier who murdered her essentially hid the crime, concealed her remains. And Vanessa's family launched a basically nationwide search to find her, and really utilized the media, galvanized the community, specifically the Latino community in Texas, to really get behind them, and keep pressure on the base, who was being somewhat quiet about Vanessa's disappearance. And they just kept the attention on the case. And ultimately, Vanessa's remains were found a little more than two months after she went missing. But we basically explore this big issue through this singular case and focus on the family's efforts.

Matthew Sherwood 05:46
Right. And it's amazing - I mean, I guess every singular case, potentially could be done this way, but what is amazing to me, is that this singular case is, as you say, it shines a light on this issue of sexual harassment in the military. But it's done, this one singular case has done so much. It's an absolute - and it shines a light on so many things. And, I mean, what I found interesting too, is that, you know, the family from the very beginning, there's just that something; there is an instinct there. There's a mother's instinct, a family instinct, that knew - because she hadn't been gone - I mean, even within hours, knew something horrible had happened. They didn't expect necessarily this, but they could sense something was going on, and there was - they had inclinations that the things weren't all as they seemed at Fort Hood before this, didn't they?

Christy Wegener 06:42
Yeah, you know, that's such a great point. I mean, yeah, there's sort of this - Gloria, Vanessa's mother, definitely had sort of a, you know, she felt it, she felt that something was wrong, instinctually. And, you know, one incredible facet about this story, is, the family has just the most incredible ability to express their emotions, to not hold back, in a way that we all really relate to. You can feel how much they worry; you can feel how much they love Vanessa; you can feel, you know, how desperate they become. And it's sort of everyone's worst nightmare that they go through. And, I think one thing that really resonates with people is that everyone could put themselves in their shoes. And in the worst way, though, imagining this is, like, the worst possible situation, you'd never want to happen to your daughter, your sister. And I think it's one of the reasons the family's ability to communicate and express their emotions - it's one of the reasons everyone really were able to rally behind them; they really were able to feel what the family was going through, which was tragic.

Matthew Sherwood 07:48
I was going to ask you, what's the Guillen family's secret? Because it's, like you say, well, you've mentioned this ability to communicate, but they - a lot of families, you know, it's nothing against other families, a lot of families go through - have had to go through this, unfortunately, but, you know, from the very beginning, they were rallying people - and this wasn't something that - they weren't like activists, a family of activists, or anything, by any stretch of the imagination - but from the very beginning, rallying community, and as we'll probably talk about more, further on is, I mean, they didn't just stop there, they've taken it all the way to Washington and the halls of power. I mean, what is it? What's in the water that the Guillen family's drinking, you know, to get them to this? What do you think is the secret?

Christy Wegener 08:42
I think that this is an incredibly close-knit family. And it's true, a lot of families are, you know, deeply connected, and, of course, love each other, immensely. The Guillen family, I think there is a value system within the family, which is a very - like the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you'd have done to you. And I think, you know, they did take this to DC, they did take on this cause because they truly did not want anyone else, any other family, to suffer in the way that they suffered. And there's something - it always makes me so emotional just to think about because I, you know, witnessing them in this, the most, you know, horrific time of their life in deep grief, decide they're gonna stay in the public eye and fight for the greater good. I think, you know, they're just exceptional in that way. And they really do care about other people. They work from that place. They have an immense level of love in the family. And it's just an incredible value system. And they're also, as you can see in the film, they're so incredibly well spoken, so smart, persistent, and there's an incredible strength there. I mean, they took on the biggest institution in the country. You know, you have to be incredibly courageous and brave to do that. So, it's just an exceptional combination of qualities.

Matthew Sherwood 10:08
Yeah. And as you said, they took on one of the biggest institutions in the country. And you've already sort of alluded to what did the - I mean, what did the US Army do, or not do? First before she was murdered, because she was - it's - I mean, people should watch the film, I don't want to give away too much. But I think it's pretty well known, and a matter of record, she was, you know, now we know for sure what the family knew from the beginning, that she was harassed, sexually harassed, what did the US Army do about it?

Christy Wegener 10:47
You know, the sexual harassment and assault issue is something that the military has been dealing with for decades. I mean, there's been a series of hugely high profile cases that come and go, you know, a lot of them happened in the early 90s, and they've just continued. And, you know, the Army has definitely - military overall, not just the army - but the whole military has tried to find effective ways to deal with this problem. But they continuously fall short. It's a difficult problem, the military's huge; you know, they have a bunch of programs, but they've been - they're essentially ineffective because in the military the biggest issue is, you know, there's the chain of command. So, you know, all roads lead back to the chain of command. So, if you're assaulted, or if you're being harassed, your course of action in the military is to report to the chain of command, and oftentimes, they're the perpetrators, or they're friends with the perpetrators, and so, you know, it doesn't, it's not effective. The other factor that really allows this problem to be so persistent and pervasive in the military is the military has its own justice system, that's not identical to the civilian justice system. In the military, you know, again, the chain of command has huge oversight over, you know, issues like what evidence gets approved or not approved in a case; they, you know, often pick the judge, they decide whether - previously they decided whether a case would even be prosecuted or not. That's not normal in the civilian world. A boss of a company would not be able to, you know, make those decisions in, yeah, in the legal world. So, those are factors that really have allowed this problem to continue to be, you know, so persistent.

Matthew Sherwood 12:34
And then there's an issue of culture, at least at certain places. And I guess, as the film points out, certainly Fort Hood outside Killeen, Texas, I'm well aware of it, had its own toxic and notorious culture there as well, didn't it?

Christy Wegener 12:55
Yeah, you know, one of our subjects in the film, Lucy Del Gaudio, says this so well. She served, you know, if you're serving, there's always certain bases that are considered the hotspots. The base is where, you know, corruption is especially bad. Fort Hood is, you know, on that list, for sure. And, yeah, that's one of the bigger bases, so harder base to manage. But, yeah, there's definitely, you know, the rumor mill goes around, and there's definitely those bases that are especially problematic.

Matthew Sherwood 13:28
Okay. And then, so, Vanessa's - well, she goes missing, we find out she was murdered, and, you know, we've already talked about what the issue has been with the criminal justice system within the Army. But it's almost like the army sort of closes ranks after this all happens. And you've got this amazing story back to the family. I mean, a family - because you even have this point - one of the - someone said that, you know, the parents couldn't even go on to the base because they're worried about their immigration status, right. So, but they, they didn't shy away, they took on the US Army, and even while this investigation is going on - when did they kind of start then also thinking about taking this to Washington, and helping to change things? It's very quickly after this all happens, isn't it?

Christy Wegener 14:33
Yeah, you know, Vanessa's remains were found, essentially, in late June, early July of that year, 2020. And the family was in DC in August of that same year. So, fighting for a bill, introducing legislation, they met with, at that time, the former President Trump. So, you know, everything did sort of evolve really quickly. Their lawyer, Natalie Khawam, was a huge sort of reason for that. But yeah, they, you know, I mean, a day felt like a week for them during the search, you know, so, you know, they really struggled to get information from the military, you know, even after Vanessa's remains were found. I think Don Christensen in the film says, you know, the military relies on the Privacy Act to keep information from victim's families. And so, you know, the Guillen family were in a constant battle. They, of course, want to know what happened to Vanessa in her final moments of life as much as they could. So, yeah, the sort of fight continued and it was, you know, a multipurpose fight to get more information about what happened and why it happened, but also to prevent this from happening to anyone else.

Matthew Sherwood 15:48
Well, I think that's actually not a bad point, place, to give our listeners and viewers an early break. We'll be right back with Christy Wegener, director and producer of I am Vanessa Guillen, currently streaming on Netflix.

Factual America Midroll 16:05
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 16:24
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Christy Wegener, director and producer of I am Vanessa Guillen, currently streaming on Netflix. Christy, we were talking about I Am Vanessa Guillen, and the family's heroic efforts to, I guess, to make sure that Vanessa didn't die in vain. And you're with the family almost the whole journey, aren't you? I mean, how did you become involved? It's quite incredible what you were, you've captured on film.

Christy Wegener 16:59
Yeah, you know, we, you know, I like many people heard about Vanessa's disappearance, probably a week after she was missing. Her sister, Mayra, her older sister, was posting on Facebook, you know, asking for anyone to help in finding her sister. I'm an older sister. When I saw Mayra, it really resonated with me. You know, as a family, we dealt with, you know, violence in different, you know, some trauma. And I personally just took a vested interest in the outcome. Like everyone else, I was hoping Vanessa would be found. And it was really devastating, you know, how this played out. And so, I'm in New York, I ended up going to DC just to support the family as they went, and they would have marches, they would - you know, they were introducing legislation, and so, you know, in going down there I started to get to know their attorney, and talk to them, and, you know, it's a four or five month process of, you know, discussing all of this, but we realized there would be value in a documentary, especially as they, you know, the first bill failed, and they were about to pursue the second, so we started filming right before they started introducing the second bill. Yeah, and then we were just with them, and they were, you know, so willing to be vulnerable on camera. They, I mean, they didn't really even acknowledge our presence, which was, you know, good. But yeah, it's just a relationship. You know, they were very focused on, you know, their mission. So, we were very fortunate to be able to follow them.

Matthew Sherwood 18:45
Yeah, I think there's - don't you even capture that - it's even in the film where they are debating it, in some ways, whether to even, you know - it's subtly done, but do you really want - I think someone says, Do you really want to make this film, or do you really want to - I don't know, is that right? I mean, I think they're having a bit of a debate about whether to, or why put your - you know, they're living in the public eye, these people who hadn't, you know, and putting themselves out there.

Christy Wegener 19:15
Yeah, I think, I mean, I know - I don't know that we put that in - they do talk about whether or not they want to continuously go to DC and pursue legislation...

Matthew Sherwood 19:23
Maybe that's what I'm touching.

Christy Wegener 19:24
Yeah. And they did as a family, you know, of course, have a discussion about whether or not there is value in doing a film. And I think that was internal discussion they had over several weeks. But ultimately, they did feel that, you know - it felt that we were aligned in the sense that we were in a way benefiting their mission because, you know, when there's cameras and you're going to DC, and, you know, it puts an added layer of pressure on legislators in a way; it's sort of like, well, if you don't support this, it's captured. If you do support it, it's captured. And I think they saw value in that. And we saw value in we're capturing something historic. I mean, what they've done is the most sweeping change to, you know, military law, I think ever. So, you know, it was mutually beneficial. And it didn't feel exploitative, which, you know, it's so easy for a film, a crime film, to go that away. So, that was really fortunate.

Matthew Sherwood 20:26
And how did - I mean, you have some - as I have some experience with some filmmakers who've tried to film on Capitol Hill; it's not the easiest thing to do. But you managed to get access to senators and Congressmen’s' offices, and discussion. I mean, I'm sure you, obviously you weren't there on the debates, they wouldn't let you do that. But it's quite impressive what you were able to - the access you were able to achieve. And the other element is, there's very few things that are bipartisan, and I know, it's not necessarily completely bipartisan, but it was a - there's definitely people on both sides of the aisle that were very, very supportive of this legislation.

Christy Wegener 21:07
Yeah, no, thank you. Those are both good points. And I have to make sure you give credit because I think, access wise, a big part of that is Natalie Khawam, the attorney who knows, you know, so many people on Capitol Hill, and I think really helped facilitate access and saw the advantage of, for the point I made earlier about, you know, there is something to having cameras in a room. And I think she even said something, and this didn't make it in the film, but Natalie, the lawyer says, you know, you can trust in what someone says if they say it in front of a camera. She said, she worries when they - if someone, a politician, for instance, wouldn't let a camera in a room. So, she questions the validity of what they're telling her. So, you know, and then, yeah, to the point about the bipartisanship. It was one of the few bills in the most divisive time in history, that was bipartisan, and, you know, it had to be in order to get passed. And, you know, there was such great support on both sides of the aisle, and we really tried to show that as much as possible, because it was unique.

Matthew Sherwood 22:18
No, I think it was - it was very, it was very impressive, and actually refreshing in that sense, to see that people - that there's still hope that people can work together. And, but, I mean, there are many heroes in this tragic story, but I think I mean, what shines through, too - back to the family again - but these sisters, Mayra and Lupe, are just absolutely incredible. And I don't think they're stopping from what I can tell. Are there any updates on them in terms of where they're heading in their lives?

Christy Wegener 22:58
Yeah, no, Mayra, Lupe, I mean, I feel so hopeful about the future of the country with leaders like Mayra and Lupe. Mayra is definitely going to pursue a career in politics. And I think is in the process of figuring out that plan, which hopefully will sort of evolve very quickly here. And then she's also running the I am Vanessa Guillen Foundation, which I think is going to be incredibly helpful to survivors of sexual misconduct. Lupe is in college and has made enormous strides. I think in the film, you see that she really struggles emotionally, and has really made huge strides. You know, she wasn't able to play soccer because that's what she did with Vanessa. She's actually able to play again. And I think she's figuring out her career path. I know, journalism was something she's really considering exploring. But, you know, they both have immense potential and promise, and I think we're gonna continue to hear from them both as the years move forward.

Matthew Sherwood 24:05
And as - well, both, or Mayra in particular, I mean, one thing that comes out of the film is that there's still more to be done, in that, that legislation wasn't the end of it. Is that part of what she's also working on in terms of how things are handled in the military?

Christy Wegener 24:24
Correct. I mean, right now, actually, as we speak, I think today, she's working on, you know, they're introducing additional provisions that weren't passed last year. They're actually working on getting them passed. Some of those right now, this month. So, I know she's a big part of that advocacy. And then there's another bill that will continue to build on the progress they made with the first bill that she'll be supporting next year. So, I think she's definitely back and forth between Houston and DC, and I think will continue to be a huge voice in this fight for more justice.

Matthew Sherwood 25:04
And then back to the original case, and speaking of justice, we had the - it's only a few days ago, isn't it, that one of the - well, at least the accomplice was finally brought to justice. Is that right?

Christy Wegener 25:20
Yeah, no, that was a huge relief. Cecily Aguilar, who was the accomplice, she participated in the dismemberment and burial of Vanessa's remains, and withheld information while the family was searching for months. So, she - up until this really recent point, last week, I believe, or a week and a half ago, she was trying to get her confession thrown out. She did that, I think three times. And so, she's recently, finally pled guilty. And, you know, I think that was a watershed moment for the family and provided some relief. And so, the next step is sentencing, which should happen in the next 80 days or so.

Matthew Sherwood 26:07
Okay. And what do you want the legacy of this film to be?

Christy Wegener 26:13
I think it's critical that we show that there is hope for democracy in America. And that it's also really important that this is not an issue that we allow to continue to persist without action in terms of legislation and as a culture. And so, I hope the film continues to spread awareness and keep this issue at the forefront. And as the lawyer in the film says, it needs to be a mainstream issue. It can't just be for members of the military. It needs to be for everyone to continue to sort of focus on because, you know, these are everyone's sons and daughters and friends that are being harmed in this institution. So, awareness is important.

Matthew Sherwood 27:06
Well, and thank you for raising that awareness. And thanks to the family, and thanks for this film, because I think it's – ultimately, it's quite uplifting, I found it. I don't know if that was your intention, or what you imagined was going to happen when you first start - I mean, did you - because okay, you started really filming sort of the second round with trying to get the legislation through. But, you know, you didn't know how that was going to play out. You know, did you imagine you would be coming to this place, that this is the film that you were heading towards?

Christy Wegener 27:42
You know, that's a good point, we really didn't know how the legislation was going to play out, what the result would be, if there would be an ending that was reasonable or interesting for the film. It was incredible that it played out the way it did. But yeah, all very unpredictable elements. And, you know, we were very hopeful because we were witnessing the family that already been through the disappointment of the first bill failing. So, I honestly, it was - I remember, I was just like, I don't know how we're going to handle - I couldn't handle watching them, their disappointment if it didn't pass, so, I'm really pleased that worked out the way it did.

Matthew Sherwood 28:23
Well, we are, too. Well, I think we're actually coming close to the end of our time together. But what's next for you? I mean, I'm sure you're still enjoying the success of your film, I am Vanessa Guillen. But do you have anything else lined up? What's next for you?

Christy Wegener 28:45
Yeah, you know, this has really just further sort of impressed upon me that I want to work on projects that, you know, have a bigger sort of impact on the world, issues that are important, although they're really difficult, emotionally to work on. So, for me, I'm looking at a few projects that also tackle some pretty big issues. You know, gender discrimination. I can't speak too specifically about but, you know, staying in this sort of genre and world is important.

Matthew Sherwood 29:17
Well, I hope you do, and thank you. And if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again, when those, one of those projects, drops and hopefully is on Netflix again. And, yeah, just to remind our listeners and viewers that we've been talking with Christy Wegener, director and producer of I Am Vanessa Guillen, currently streaming on Netflix. Highly recommend that you check it out. Thanks again, Christy. It's been a pleasure having you on.

Christy Wegener 29:46
It's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much, Matthew. I appreciate it so much.

Matthew Sherwood 29:50
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.

Factual America Outro 30:31
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk