Gun Violence and Mass Shootings in America
America’s love affair with guns is one of its defining attributes, and the number of mass shootings hit an all-time high in 2019. While politicians vow to tackle the problem, a powerful gun lobby stands in the way.
To help us understand why the US struggles with gun violence on such a massive scale, Dr Peter Squires, an expert on the subject, joins the show. He is a sociologist and professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton, who has worked with many different police forces, and is respected globally for his research into firearms and crime.
Peter screens British director Marc Silver’s acclaimed 3 ½ Minutes, 10 Bullets (2015) in his classes. This film focuses on the 2012 shooting of Jordan Russell Davis and the trial, media coverage and public reaction following the event. This particular shooting raised a lot of questions about gun legislation in America, particularly the ‘stand your ground’ law in Florida, while Marc Silver's observational documentary lets the audience draw its own conclusions.
With Peter’s in-depth knowledge of gun crime, we examine the case and talk about why gun violence is so much more prevalent in America compared with other countries, even those with high rates of gun ownership. We also investigate why America got into this situation and more importantly what steps can be taken to minimize gun violence in the future.
Like Peter's students, we too can watch Marc Silver's film and make up our own mind about what is really behind the culture of fear afflicting so many Americans.
“People can become a dark celebrity very quickly by a horrific act against society.” - Peter Squires
Time Stamps:
01:10 - The topic we are looking at today and introducing the guest.
02:58 - About the film 3 1/2 Minutes, 10 Bullets.
03:44 - Why Peter chose this particular film.
05:17 - A brief synopsis.
06:39 - Why the shooting happened and Florida’s ‘stand your ground’ law.
08:37 - The different issues this documentary deals with.
10:16 - The Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.
11:02 - Peter’s impressions of America as a child.
12:21 - Playing a clip from the film.
15:38 - Why gun violence is much more prevalent in America compared to European countries.
18:42 - Assault rifles and their use in mass shootings.
19:43 - Having a homogenous society and the ‘copycat’ phenomenon.
21:56 - The importance of mental health support.
25:18 - The reasons why gun possession is so high in America.
28:50 - The marketing of the gun industry.
30:30 - What stopped school shootings in England.
33:33 - What the solutions to this problem in America are.
38:38 - The ‘Why did you keep shooting’ clip from the film.
41:54 - If Peter lived in America, would he own a gun?
Resources:
3 ½ Minutes, Ten Bullets
The Gun Violence Archive
Gun crime in global contexts
Marc Silver's Website
Connect with Peter Squires:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 5 - Gun Violence and Mass Shootings in America
00:01
You're listening to factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on instagram and twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, festivals were attending and how to connect with our team. Our homepage is lm o pictures.co.uk. And now, enjoy factual America with our host, Matthew Sherwood.
00:40 Matthew
Welcome to factual America, a podcast that explores the themes that make America unique through the lens of documentary filmmaking. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures that London based production company that makes documentaries focused on the US from a European perspective. Now here at Alamo pictures in factual America, we're all about searching for truth in a Post truth society, which is easier said than done. But so that brings us to our topic for today, which is, I hate to say it pains me as an American to talk about gun violence and all the issues around it in the United States.
I don't know what it is we seem. It's it's obviously a problem. It's an issue that does in some, a lot of people's minds across the world define the US in many ways. It is a problem rears its ugly head not just periodically as a scan of the stats would show you I think it's a you know, it's increasingly a problem even and yet, as a collective culture nation, we seem uniquely incapable of doing anything about it. So that brings me to our guest today, Professor Peter Squires.Peter is a sociologist by background and Professor of criminology and Public Policy at the University of Brighton. He's written a raft of publications that among many things but gun crime in a global context. He's self described himself as a relatively obscure British academic, but he's anything but I would say as someone who lives here in the UK, he's sought after by international media participates in debates. You might have seen him in huffpost.
He's gotten mano a mano with Wayne LaPierre from the NRA, the chief executive executive vice president. We may talk a little bit about that later. And he puts his money where his mouth is. So he works with various police organizations in the UK, including the London met, and has served as a borough Councillor. So without further ado, Peter, welcome to factual America.
Peter
Good to meet you. Thank you.
Matthew
It's a pleasure to meet you. The is as you know how we roll here at factual America, we asked all our guests, even those who are not necessarily documentarians, or filmmakers to pick or select a film that will at the very least serve as a backdrop for the conversation we're going to have now. You've picked the Three and a half minutes 10 bullets, first of all want to thank you for picking that I hadn't had a chance to see that until this last week and it's a, it's an if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. You can find it on Vimeo. It came out in 2015 when a Special Jury Award at Sundance, what we like to see here at Factual America and Elmo pictures that it's directed by Mark silver, who's a British cinematographer and director who brings a uniquely British and European perspective to the story. You may also know him for directing who is dyani crystal in 2013, which starred Gail Garcia Brunel. So Peter why, maybe you can tell us a little bit why you chose this film, and how you why you use it as a as part of your teaching.
Peter
I, I've often used films, documentary films with with classes of students, and what I particularly liked about this film, I mean, it's powerful.
Unknown Speaker 3:56
And just as the title says in three and a half minutes
Unknown Speaker 4:00
So many people's lives changed around the the firing of 10 bullets into a into a car.
Unknown Speaker 4:06
But I like the way the the story around the incident builds. And it's useful in class because I take the students, I show them the first 50 odd minutes of the film, where we get all the evidence, we get all the perspective, we see the trauma of the victims, and then the jury goes out. And I like to ask students, you know, what, what verdict Do you think you would reach? What were the most compelling pieces of evidence? What what verdict would you reach? And then I try to trick them a little by saying, Well, what do you think an American jury would decide? And would it be the same as an English jury, and sometimes that throws them off, and it opens up some of those
Unknown Speaker 4:48
incorrect assumptions we might make about transatlantic justice. Yes, yeah. So I think it's very good point. I think the audience itself, even if you're not in Professor Squires class, you're you're asked to sort of do the same thing.
Unknown Speaker 5:00
You're you're watching the film and you wait, you're in there your mind you're weighing up the evidence. And he doesn't, you know, he doesn't take a particular slant from the very beginning. He just presents it so that you can come to your own conclusions. Maybe for those who haven't seen it, could you give us a sort of a brief synopsis of Yeah, sure. It's, it all happens on a gas station for court. A white guy and his wife pull up to to go to the store that's at the gas station. And the guy's I think filling his car. Another vehicle pulls up adjacent to his with three young black men in it. They're playing what's described as very loud rap music. The the white guy seems to take offense at this. You can see this on on the the gas station CCTV system. He takes offense at this noise. And he asks the young men to turn the music down. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 6:00
You can't tell everything that's being said. But I'm sure they're abusive back to him and refuse to do so. At which point he goes to the glovebox of his car pulls out a gun, and fires 10 shots into the into the other car in the process killing one person. wounding another. Yeah, yeah, there'd be three, three ends up killing Jordan Davis
Unknown Speaker 6:25
was the one of the young black youth in that car. I mean, is this
Unknown Speaker 6:31
and the whole, the whole trial is all hinges on this law in Florida. That's the Stand Your Ground law and maybe you can say a little bit about that? Well, I think there's a degree of ambiguity about that because I don't think the Stand Your Ground law comes up in a in a very specific way in the trial, and it certainly isn't really the basis of his of his defense, although in the in a much vaguer notion of the fact that he felt intimidated by the
Unknown Speaker 7:00
Three African American guys. He claims to the place that he saw what he thought was a shotgun barrel in the in the vehicle window. He claims that the fact that they were listening to gangster rap music was the fact that they were gangsters and any, you know, his his approach to them was about to be met by force from them. And he claims he was scared and he acted rather quickly. Rather than temporarily, he'll fiercely and just empties his gun into their vehicle. So I think the Stand Your Ground law is there, almost as a set of background assumptions, although I don't think the case itself hangs directly on it. I think actually, that's very interesting. I think that's a very good point. It is really, what he keeps stressing is that he felt he he was defending himself. He felt scared he thought it was obvious these guys are about to shoot him and his family.
Unknown Speaker 8:00
yonce is as he was claiming.
Unknown Speaker 8:03
That is, and that is, in a sense, part of the the defense that someone claiming is the right to stand my ground yet and defend myself. Yeah, would do. But he doesn't quite make that explicit, which I think is interesting the way in which a law, and we've talked earlier about whether it was badly or clearly draft yet the law exists, but a whole set of a half half understood assumptions circulate around it, which influence people's action. Yes, I think it's a good point. I mean, just to say a little bit more about the film to is like any great documentary, it deals with so many different issues, and there's issues obviously of race here. There's issues of even faith and religion and the mass media and these things. So do highly recommend I mean, I guess, I was looking at this at depending on your definition, this could count as a a mass shooting
Unknown Speaker 9:01
It's always dangerous here when we start getting into statistics on this subject and as an American, I've unique sensibilities on this. But I know the gun violence archive, which is a nonprofit defines a mass shooting is for more people. So I guess if it's only three in the car, maybe it doesn't count in this case, but for more people, excluding the perpetrator are shot in one location roughly at the same time. Now, I know for those of you who might getting a bit bristly out there, The Washington Post and Congressional Research Service, defined a little more narrowly you have to actually be killed in order to count as a victim. But that seems like a pretty good definition to me, if I don't know as a layman. And what I was surprised to see was that up through latest data go through 24th of September of this year, and we've had 334 mass shootings in the United States. Okay, some of those are murder suicides, but there you go. That's 1.2. That's still more than one per day and we're talking about 307 70
Unknown Speaker 10:00
Seven dead. So that's obviously more than one per day, Dana over 1300 injured. And notably, on August alone, we had mid load, Midland Odessa and El Paso in Texas. And we had Dayton, Ohio.
Unknown Speaker 10:13
I had another spin on that actually. I recently went to Tucson for a gun violence conference. And while there I went to tombstone where you can, yeah, three, three times a day, you can watch the gunfight at the OK Corral, performed by actors in front of you. And what always intrigued me that 39 movies have been made that feature the the gunfight at the OK Corral. But although it's America's most iconic gunfight, it probably wouldn't count as a mass shooting because only three people died. That's kind of irony. Exactly. I mean, I this is this is a question we often ask our guests and I'll bring it up here since you bring up tombstone is, I mean, growing up what were your, you know, even before you became got into this field, what were your impressions of him?
Unknown Speaker 11:00
America did you know
Unknown Speaker 11:02
I've always been fascinated by America. My my father was an avid john wayne cowboy, a film watcher and I was thoroughly indoctrinated in that and all the series that went with it.
Unknown Speaker 11:18
And still I'm in a way, I'm fascinated by that, and particularly the kind of the notion of the Wild West and
Unknown Speaker 11:27
through my childhood probably got a kind of completely inflated sense of how that relatively short period in history has left down a marker and has had a profound ideological impact upon how people think about themselves and their safety. And I think there's some we'll get to just a little bit later, but I think, from what I've read of your works, but feel free to correct me later, I think you've you know, it's it's not just one solution. It's a bit of a nuanced view of what why the US has this issue, and or has been a
Unknown Speaker 12:00
ability to maybe or hasn't up until now been able to tackle it. But before we do that, I thought it would be good to just one last thing from the film is to maybe see a little clip here. And I think there's one in particular you said is quite good in terms of
Unknown Speaker 12:16
sort of setting up the whole the whole piece do.
Unknown Speaker 12:21
It's simply This is after the event the the shooter has been, I think arrested he's certainly in the in the police station in an interview room, facing to two cops who are asking him about what happened in the order of events. And he's very pally very chatty with them. And I find it fascinating that despite what he's just done, killed, someone fired nine more shots into a vehicle, a yard or two away. He still doesn't seem to get that he's done anything wrong. Yeah, I know that might be
Unknown Speaker 13:00
A degree of bravado, it might be sort of shock control more afterwards, but he feels it's in the right. And I don't think he sees a murder charge coming. Yeah. And I think he maintains it almost throughout the whole the whole pace. So let's let's watch that now.
Unknown Speaker 13:17
Mr. guy told you what he believes the evidence is going to show. What Mr. guy didn't tell you is that Jordan Davis threatened Michael Dunn with a shotgun barrel sticking out of the window
Unknown Speaker 13:31
or lead pipe, whatever it was, it's a deadly weapon. We're not here to change the law.
Unknown Speaker 13:38
We're not here to say anybody deserved to lose their life.
Unknown Speaker 13:43
But under the law, it's justified.
Unknown Speaker 13:47
And Michael Dunn had every right under the law to not be a victim
Unknown Speaker 13:54
to be judged by 12 rather than carried by six.
Unknown Speaker 13:58
That's long
Unknown Speaker 14:00
That's justified in the great state of Florida.
Unknown Speaker 14:05
What's going on with your life that? Oh no, my life is great. I'm gonna play some beats. I got a great job man, a great girl. We just got a little puppy. I mean, the way I see this, this was I was hearing for my life. I thought that you guys are seen as murder. Do I?
Unknown Speaker 14:28
Do I need to get a lawyer? I mean, it sounds like I'm in deep shit.
Unknown Speaker 14:36
All right, that Yeah, I think that's a that's a very good piece and really does help set up the the the whole story there. I think let's then move into some of the some of these really meaty issues that we're hoping to discuss today.
Unknown Speaker 14:50
I mean, first of all, why why is why are mass shootings gun violence. Why is it so prevalent in the US? I mean, I think there's a few things we could even discuss there. I mean,
Unknown Speaker 15:00
For our listeners, summer us base summer European base, you could contrast the whole gun buying experience in the US versus, say the UK or Europe.
Unknown Speaker 15:09
Europeans think you can just pretty much people sell guns on the street left and right in America, you might argue it's not too far off from that. There are some Americans would probably think that not even the French army is allowed to have guns, you know, and I know having lived here, it's a very, very different story. So maybe, if you could maybe lead us through that about and we know that there are other countries where there's high levels of gun ownership, but they don't have this problem. So maybe you could say a little something, you know, what your researches I mean, the most recent research by my magnum opus, if you like the gun violence in global context, book, I tried to distinguish between what you might call civilized and uncivilized or de civilizing. Yeah, gun regimes. So places like Switzerland or Norway.
Unknown Speaker 16:00
way that Yeah, there are lots of guns these a European, highly civilized, highly regulated, licensed and they have relatively low International, internationally speaking low crime rates,
Unknown Speaker 16:14
but they don't have the kind of culture and history so, so switch back to the States. This is a this is a form of frontier society where guns had a purpose where guns were celebrated, where guns were used. Increasingly now I see the language of genocide being used to describe white advancement across America. I mean, it was called a civilizing process at the time and and that kind of s guns, firearms with a sort of reverence then,
Unknown Speaker 16:48
you know, America set itself free by the power of the gun kicked out the British,
Unknown Speaker 16:54
civilized the West ended slavery all by the party, so they're gone.
Unknown Speaker 17:00
vindicated as a force for progress in a sense, but that's tradition. That's history the the gun is celebrated in the Second Amendment. Although I think that over time, the meaning of that has been indeed shifted quite considerably. But by the time we get to the 1970s, the the hunting and the shooting and the Wild West kind of sporting heritage that is part of the firearm culture is shifting to a self defense rhetoric and a self defense rhetoric founded upon crime later terrorism but I think both of those notions are a bit of a you know what sometimes called dog whistle politic, right, which are really about race and which are really about the inner city so I think a lot of people are arming themselves.
Unknown Speaker 17:53
As I said, a last resort it you know, you could see in the Little House on the Prairie, but I think that
Unknown Speaker 18:00
mindset is still part of many people's resort to personal protection firearms today. I think that's an interesting point. And not that this is just about mass shootings, but you can use mass shootings is again, another sort of statistic. I mean, they were very, very rare, like they are in other countries up until sort of the 70s 80s. And it really taken, you know, taken off, but, you know, certainly the frequency is much more prevalent in the sort of 90s. And I saw that even and also in terms of their gravity in terms of the number of fatalities, they think the top nine worse or 10 worse mass shootings more than I think all but two or since since 2000. You know, I you can't Yes, you can't take the gun out of the picture. And I think one there's an up step in gravity in seriousness when we're starting to talk about semi automatic firearms, the high caliber pistols large I mean, I'm edition magazines. I think the second step
Unknown Speaker 19:00
comes around 2000 when we see increasingly mass shootings perpetrated by what we now call assault rifles. Yeah, they do what they're what it says on the tin. Yeah, incredibly lethal. It's the biggest mass shootings of late have all been perpetrated with assault assault weapons. I mean, you've mentioned, you mentioned Scandinavia. And I mean, obviously, we know there's an event in Norway not too long ago, in Switzerland, but these are very homogeneous societies. Do you think that's a that has? It's it's easier in societies like that to sort of regulate this? And, you know, in the US, it's, I mean, maybe it's a baby. That's the flip side of sort of the race issue? I don't know. I think it comes down to an issue about political culture, I think homogeneity of the population is an important issue. And that's why in some of these societies, which are beginning to get a bit of the Islamophobia that within across Europe, some of that might be breaking down.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
But I think homogenate is an important issue. Yes clearly in the states we have significant ethnic religious north south divides which are often fault lines for a lot of the gun politics at why mass shootings i i think it's it's become a kind of almost a copycat fun phenomenon. I don't want to I don't want to sort of talk about this as lightly but people have begun to see this as a way of enacting a kind of revenge resistance certainly in the the attacks by white supremacist, it's become a way of fighting their cause and many of them cite brevik in the Norway shooting and likewise the the shooting in New Zealand Yeah. So they reference one another, they they produce podcasts.
Unknown Speaker 21:00
They have diaries they matter. So it's become a way of effecting a kind of grief or a resistance or revenge or, and in a sense, a way of doing it. I think I coined the phrase duck celebrity to capture it, you know, in an actor world, people, people could become a dark celebrity very quickly by by a horrific act against society. But I thought I mean, again, do correct me if I've got the wrong impression, but I think something you wrote was about how these perpetrators something about you know, their look, you know, it's it sounds cliche, but they're loners and something about how the difference between American society maybe other societies where if you start seeing someone who's having these sort of mental breakdowns or whatever's there, there's a more of a support system is that good? Could you say something like that's, I think the the the issue of community mental health support. It is
Unknown Speaker 22:00
is certainly a factor. The the perpetrators of mass shootings do appear to have fundamental grudges. I mean, I there have been cases where students shoot their examiner's where, where people who've been fired, shoot their bosses or go back to the school that failed them or kill the girlfriend that jilted them. So it's it's been oh it's become a way of enacting a really kind of lethal revenge, often
Unknown Speaker 22:32
quite inarticulate revenge. Yes. Yeah. But but sometimes and some of the some of the sort of femicide that goes, goes into these shootings. It's often men, exacting revenge against the women that have jilted them or belittle them.
Unknown Speaker 22:52
Often, often backed by friends. I mean, there's a fascinating case of a school shooting
Unknown Speaker 23:00
And the the proceeding the shooting the guy is is is there with his gun and his friends are egging him on. Go on shoot the bitch. I mean, it's horrific. Yeah, it is. But but it goes to a kind of culture where this is a way of enacting something. There was a discussing the Virginia Tech shooting from 2007. Someone talked about violence. Being as American as apple pie is a really worrying notion. But yeah, it is a resource to which people can go to an actor kind of enraged powerlessness. It's a give him a gun. It's powerful. Hold that thought, Peter. But we need to take a little break here.
Unknown Speaker 23:48
You're listening to factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on instagram and twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases and upcoming shows.
Unknown Speaker 24:00
Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. And now back to factual America.
Unknown Speaker 24:11
So, welcome back to factual America. We were just talking a lot about that lovely topic of mass shootings in the United States, I think, what would be worth
Unknown Speaker 24:22
discussing? I think it'd be good if we could just maybe even pull back a little bit because obviously mass shootings get all the publicity. It's when various US presidents over the years have come up and said, You know, this is in this will end now. We can't let our children and sons and daughters be killed by these people, you know, like this again, and then nothing happens.
Unknown Speaker 24:43
And even if there weren't mass shootings, there is a gun violence issue in the United States. So
Unknown Speaker 24:50
what is it about
Unknown Speaker 24:53
the US that makes us so uniquely incapable of tackling this issue?
Unknown Speaker 25:00
think that that's a big broad question, really. And then even there's I think other issues here mental health, probably we do know, in the official statistics, all these mass shootings are murder suicides. So, Peter, what why why can't we finally get to grips with this issue in the United? I think we've alluded to some of the reasons already to do with tradition. people standing on their, their second amendment rights, their their fear of crime of I mean, home invasion. I don't know how often homes are invaded. But yeah, people keep guns at home for that reason, and they keeping increasingly powerful guns for that reason, carry them in their cars to prevent carjacking. And I think what what I said earlier that gun gun possession for self defense is is about fear of crime. It's also about fear of terrorism. I think now as has become an issue. It was so soon after 911
Unknown Speaker 26:00
People were talking about having
Speaker 26:03
armed gUnknown uards on planes. And of course, we're talking about armed guards. So guns are the answer. But the problem with guns is that people don't see them as a risk. The, the idea is that I have a gun to make myself safe. But all the evidence shows here, I'm more likely to use my gun on myself than anybody else. And I'm more something like seven times more likely to shoot a fellow family member than than an aggressor, an outsider. So, so that's part of the misunderstanding. Guns are used in suicide twice as often as they are in homicide. And that's, you know, the gun is not your friend. The gun is a risk to your household. Yeah, I mean, I think for to probably a picture that some of our listeners are drawing her baby basted or never certainly been to the US is we're not talking about a public
Unknown Speaker 27:00
It's everyone's walking around with a holster on their hip. I mean, executive producer of Elmo pictures and I were talking the other day. He lived in Texas for around the United States certainly for around 10 years. I'm from there.
Unknown Speaker 27:12
I don't know if I've except for a policeman. I don't know if I've ever seen someone carrying a gun around and I certainly didn't have them in my house. were more fishermen but I think
Unknown Speaker 27:25
we have the gun rack in the pickup but that was for the fishing poles and not the guns but it is it's an odd one because it's not like it's it's not like people are you know, rampantly carrying guns. It's not as you know, like even some societies where you've had breakdown like in Central America and other places, but at the same time, it is for a country of like the US It is so it's it is a relatively prevalent problem. And then what is you know, is it the gun lobby? Is it is that is that the main thing that's standing in the way of a fight? I mentioned my trips tombstone. I'm one
Unknown Speaker 28:00
What struck me there is that there are lots of people dresses cowboys with mere six shooters on their hip, but the one who surprised me was a guy in in a denims and an a plaid shirt and and he'd got a Glock. Yeah. So he was he was a tourist, but he clearly Arizona. It's one of the western states. Yeah. But But the bigger picture. Yeah, I mean, people don't often realize but gun ownership as a demographic is falling in about 30% of households that have a gun. It's almost entirely the man that owns the gun. Something like 85% of the gun guns owned in America are owned by men. But this demographic is falling. What's also interesting is that the the people who own guns
Unknown Speaker 28:45
are buying more of them. And I find that fascinating. Yeah. How do you persuade the guy who's already got six guns to buy the next one? Yeah. And I think that's been the marketing strategy of the gun industry for last 20
Unknown Speaker 29:00
30 years, I talked earlier about the uplift from revolvers and semi automatic pistols. And I did a study on the marketing of those but I think the the sales pitch now is all about the semi automatic assault rifles, which are the next big thing that the gun industry is trying to sell you it's almost the equivalent of for a lot of men and technology and cars and things you what the next thing that can do something bigger and faster and better in some ways. Yes. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 29:31
I try to explain it to, to English audiences by reference to do you play golf? How many golf clubs Yeah, and you know, no one only has one, and they have different functions and and that's part of a sporting culture. Yes, but it's also a sporting culture, which is now oriented itself around the self defense man and that's that's where the guns are being sold today.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
But you've you've also looked at I think it was an interesting was to contrast Dunblane which was the back door mass shooting but in Scotland for those who don't know the tennis star Andy Murray was even a student at the school when this happened and how the UK address that versus how Sandy Hook happens and lots of politicians so in the USA they're gonna do all kinds of things you know about the school shooting in Connecticut but then nothing really happens. You could say dumb black Dunblane was was the game changer in in Britain. Although it was the second mass shooting we had and in a way that gave more political traction to the idea that we can say never again, this is not a knee jerk reaction. It's happened before and this time it was five year old children.
Unknown Speaker 30:49
But but the political system initially tried to respond to Dunblane by setting up a judicial inquiry that would look at the evidence and be British take take both
Unknown Speaker 31:00
sides, you know, the gun lobby and the gun control movement and until Dunblane happened there wasn't one right and and weigh up the evidence but I think this was this was a turning point because it was children the horror and outraged the generation of a of a political campaign the snowdrop campaign about gun about handgun ownership. And I think it also was in a unique opportunity because Tony Blair, who at the time was Leader of the Opposition was seizing the moment to be seen as make labour the party of law and order. And interesting took the issue and it fitted in because it was we were just coming up to a general election so labour sees the issue. But there was such a groundswell of sort of horror, at the idea that a grown man could just shoot children like shooting
Unknown Speaker 32:00
fish in a barrel.
Unknown Speaker 32:02
Even the outgoing Tory government legislated a ban on higher caliber firearms. And when Blair came in, he completed that and two two pistols were banned as well. So it was a conjunction of circumstances. Yeah, but but accompanied by an idea that, you know, a political fixing gonna do it this time. Right. And public opinion was well in support of the the handgun ban. And you know, when it comes to a question is people's right to play Dirty Harry Yes, his children's safety in school. It's it's a no brainer. And I think that was the way it was presented. I mean, I wonder if things are good if the I mean, we've been here many times before, as we've said, but if the tide might start to be turning in the US, I mean, I know in social media a few days ago, there's a lot of uproar the target the big retailer in the US announcing that
Unknown Speaker 33:00
Besides its managers, all employees at all of its stores, were going to get training on how to deal with with a mass shooting or, you know, violent incidents in their stores. And that's caused some some, you know, upper uproar about this. Some, you know, no one should have to go through that kind of training, you know.
Unknown Speaker 33:21
And I guess gets to a point if we could change some US law or give you a US passport make you a naturalized American citizen or something. You were president. I mean, what are the what are the solutions do you think to to this? Well, I had a lot of hope and expectation that the kind of package of gun control measures that the Obama administration we're trying to push through the Senate would would would get some political support. When when there's a mass shooting, you see a kind of groundswell of public opinion for something to be done, but that seems to have a fairly short shelf.
Unknown Speaker 34:00
Like it sort of goes away.
Unknown Speaker 34:04
But a number of those proposals filling the gaps in the National Incident check system and making sure that people with mental health hospitalizations cannot access firearms, because there have been a number of major mass shooting incidents perpetrated by people who really ought not to have been electric gun. Right. irrespective of their felony record. They were mentally unstable. They bought the gun. When I mean this goes right back to the Brady law in the attempt to Ronald Reagan's. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 34:38
So I think filling those gaps
Unknown Speaker 34:43
establishing a better licensing system for I mean, I know some states go further than others. Oh, yes, we've got a patchwork quilt. So you it's hard to generate by state. Yeah, but but there are real issues in in some of those states that allow
Unknown Speaker 35:00
Secondary sales to go relatively on unsupervised. Again, that was part of the
Unknown Speaker 35:08
Obama package to have federally licensed dealers oversee secondary market sales. So I think there are lots of lots of little developments and I think, to empower the ATF to do proper searching because according to the law, the ATF cannot store gun records on a computer system. So it's hamstrung by the idea that everything has got to be a paper check which slows weapon tracing down enormously. And and it's the fear because I know a number of people on the gun lobby side think that if you if you register guns, if you license them, your state will know where they are, and it's one step more towards confiscation, right. So they have a fear of that but it seems to me to dis
Unknown Speaker 36:00
Power your government law and order agencies in the way that currently they are is is crazy. Yeah. And I think but maybe the you know, sort of the hope is, as you were describing earlier as the sort of the demographic trends that we're seeing in the US in this fall and gun ownership, at least in terms of numbers of households, we do know that those households who own and owning more
Unknown Speaker 36:22
you know, you maybe it's it's it's a I hate to say it, but it's almost a waiting game. And you get to a point where you've had enough of a demographic shift that you finally have the enough politicians who will be able to put the steps in place that will at least help address some of these some of these issues. Yes, I think it's a it's a it's a it's an issue that's moving at glacial speed Yes, yeah, but it but it's a it's a demographic one what what's interested me of late has been the the gun industry's attempt to find new markets for guns are particularly a market amongst women. I mean, that's, that's an untapped market. So
Unknown Speaker 37:00
So you can buy a pink assault rifle, or or Han descending actually, but anyway, but maybe that or or us, you know, smaller guns that can fit in a purse and the nutriments for concealing them around the body. So looking for new markets is one thing, but I i do think and it's certainly since the Parkland shooting in Florida a couple of years back. I think the the the emergence of other more articulate youth campaign that points to a demographic that feels let down. I guess we've been here before feels let down by politicians and the sort of inertia especially in the Senate, it seems to me Yeah, I mean, even Trump looked like he was wavering for a while on some gun issues, the bond stocks but I think he got stomped on pretty quickly by an RA advisors. Yes, but but there seems to be a chink there are a number of companies with disinvest
Unknown Speaker 38:00
From gun related products so I think there's a slow burn issue here. The NRA membership is white, getting older, suburban, and it's shrinking. One of the consequences of that ideologically is that they become much more partisan. Much more extreme. Yeah, but I think that's also a sign of its decline. Hmm. Yeah. I think what we're going to do now is on that note is actually since this is a podcast that references documentary films, I think we're going to see another another scene from the from the film. What do you think Peters? This one where Michael Dunn who's the shooter? The it was? Well, I won't give away the ending though. Anyone probably already knows the ending.
Unknown Speaker 38:45
He talks about I think they asked him as part of the trial why you know, he doesn't just shoot once he shoots as we say that as the title The film tells you 10 times even as the cars driving away shoots into the back of the car.
Unknown Speaker 39:00
I think there's a he talks about why he was so why he kept shooting what he was afraid of. So let's see that. What did you believe was about to happen to you? I thought I was gonna be killed, but I still didn't go for my gun at that time. I was just like on Oh my god, where is all this hostility coming from? And it was at that point where he said this shits going down now, in your wildest dreams could you fathom being that position over a common courtesy? No. Okay. Now, at this point, what's going through your mind when he said this shits going down? Now? This was clear and present danger, and I said,
Unknown Speaker 39:46
You're not gonna kill me. You sent him a bitch. Okay. And as you said that were you looking at him or were you now moving that hour? I said that as I was retrieving my pistol, could you show the jury exactly what you did? Well, if I'm
Unknown Speaker 40:00
Pretty say over here is my glove box.
Unknown Speaker 40:05
I'm looking out the window and I said you're not gonna kill me son of a bitch and I shot okay. And do you even recall how many times you shot I do not kind of was in a fixed position with the tunnel vision I didn't realize the CV was moving. I was still aiming at the rear passenger and it didn't register that the car was backing up. Okay, and at some point you realize now there's no more red door in front of your face. This is where I run this starts coming into my mind because I know she's heard the shots. I know Rhonda.
Unknown Speaker 40:50
It wasn't just my life I was worried about enough and at some point now, do you see that SUV actually drive towards a different direction or trying to
Unknown Speaker 41:00
drive away. It did. And this is where the now they're back in line with if they hire on me, they'll hit the front door and this is Iran that comes out. What was your purpose of firing towards the back of that vehicle? I was worried about a blind firing situation where they would, you know, shoot over their heads or whatever and hit me or hit me and Rhonda I stopped firing when it appeared that the threat was over.
Unknown Speaker 41:32
Okay, welcome back to factual America. At the break, Peter I and I were talking and he sort of gave something away here. He's a $64,000 question is the phrase we that gets used a lot in this in this country.
Unknown Speaker 41:47
If he lived himself lived in the US would he be a gun owner?
Unknown Speaker 41:52
We're gonna say something about that. I that's a real dilemma. I've I've never owned a gun in in the UK. I've
Unknown Speaker 42:00
I've taken part in shooting competitions when I was much younger, in the cadet force. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 42:08
I thought it was quite a boring thing to do. I'm, I'm not very keen on hunting shooting things for fun. I find I find the whole grouse shooting elite culture thing, but sickening. But I suppose it would be a question about where did I live in the states and how confident was I about the ability of the police to get there on time? Because I know that there are there are these slogans, you know, when when seconds matter, the police are only minutes away, and all of that, and it it does raise a predicament. So So I wonder I mean, maybe not in one of the big cities, but maybe if I lived out in the wilds, some some protection would be sensible. I know I'm hovering here. I'm not sure I A friend of mine.
Unknown Speaker 43:00
came over recently who lived in Florida. It was an ex cop in Florida. And after five days, I plucked up the courage to ask him. Yeah, did. Did he have an ex cop?
Unknown Speaker 43:12
But yeah, and he said, he said, Yes, he had this one and he had another one. And he would never leave his wife alone at home with her having access to a firearm. Yeah. Wow. Well, but maybe that's Florida. Yeah. I just think of my late uncle may rest in peace or visiting it was at college and I was on my way home and usually stop at their house for because it was halfway point getting home and he's giving me a tour of the house. Monday's big, you know, big camper had all this equipment and this wall full of like, all these different ropes he used for rappelling and rock climbing and things. And then he just said
Unknown Speaker 43:52
he just pulled one back and he had a semi automatic there. And he goes just in case the shit goes down. I'm ready.
Unknown Speaker 43:59
So you
Unknown Speaker 44:00
Just I mean it is a there is I guess what you're touching at is that you know there is in some parts
Unknown Speaker 44:09
sort of a it's can be somewhat understandable that some people would have a fear of of their safety I mean, my own when my wife and I talked about we
Unknown Speaker 44:22
probably had a similar boat always said well if we lived out in the country someplace here we probably would have one just to shoot the odd rattlesnake or two if we ever needed it for something you know, not that you need a gun to shoot to kill. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 44:36
But I know that I said earlier I I was fascinated with
Unknown Speaker 44:42
many aspects of American culture. You know, music and and media. And and what surprised me I'd never quite
Unknown Speaker 44:54
caught on to the fact that but as soon as I started researching the whole garnish,
Unknown Speaker 45:00
I was surprised how much I soaked up about different types of rifles and different types of pistols I in and this is all from,
Unknown Speaker 45:10
from media feel media now that that is at the same time a problem when you're an academic researcher, because that is the same as saying you've picked up a lot of
Unknown Speaker 45:24
you've picked up a lot of information about guns and maybe some other perceptions about guns from Yeah, you know, a mythical Hollywood product. Yeah. Which is why I like to try and keep it in the rail and talk about the kind of dangers the risks associated with firearm ownership. I mean, I mentioned earlier I'm hearing here about them the fact of would I want to own a gun if I lived in certain parts of the states, but at the same time, I know on a on a on a logical level, that that gun is a risk. Yeah, it's it's
Unknown Speaker 46:00
Statistically more likely than likely to be a risk to me than a Yeah, an asset to me, but knowing that we have as humans a tremendous ability to not take in those bits of information that we don't, indeed.
Unknown Speaker 46:16
Or maybe on that note, I think it would be, maybe this is a unfortunately, we're gonna have to maybe give it a wrap here. But, Peter, it's been a pleasure having you on the factual America podcast. I really, really do appreciate that and your insights into what a topic that can be. What's a serious topic and one that people do need people with much more influence and you and I have need to get to grips with.
Unknown Speaker 46:44
I'd like to give a shout out here to spirit land studios, who for their great hospitality. Also if you want to keep track of Peters academic work, his research he's got a website, Peter
Unknown Speaker 47:00
squares dotnet he's gonna now he's gonna be upset with me because now he's got to go home and update it.
Unknown Speaker 47:06
And please check out the eponymous website also of Mark silver, the director of the film three and a half minutes 10 bullets, which one a Jury Prize at Sundance in 2015. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen to podcasts. And without further ado, this is factual America signing off.
Unknown Speaker 47:31
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Unknown Speaker 48:00
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