Crip Camp: Cradle of the Disability Rights Movement
In the 1970s Camp Jened was not just any old summer camp in the Catskills. Hippy values, the Grateful Dead and pot smoking shaped this utopia for teens with disabilities making for a disability revolution.
Before long, a generation of summer campers with disabilities became a social movement that soon changed the world.
We welcome Jim LeBrecht and Nicole Newnham, co-directors of the Netflix documentary Crip Camp, to the podcast. Jim and Nicole share their experiences making a documentary about one of the most compelling, previously untold stories of our time.
In the process, we find out what it is like to work with executive producers Barack and Michelle Obama. The documentary also highlights the group’s remarkable story as well as Jim’s personal story. Jim and Nicole also discuss the next items on the agenda for disability rights.
“I had no mental model for imagining disability communities, and I didn’t have any mental model for thinking about wild, horny teenagers listening to Bob Dylan at a summer camp. It was just joyous.” - Nicole Newnham
The Crip Camp Cast is composed of former campers, counselors, and archival footage of former counselors and campers that attended the camp.
Time Stamps:
03:26 - What Camp Jened was, and the impact it had on the world.
06:25 - What the film Crip Camp is really about.
08:30 - Jim talks about what it is like seeing your life on screen.
11:15 - Jim relays his experiences as a disabled child and teen in the 1960s and 70s.
13:08 - Why a lot of people don’t know about the disability rights movement and Camp Jened.
17:05 - First clip: footage from Camp Jened.
19:42 - How Nicole managed to get the footage from the camp.
23:48 - Where the name 'Crip Camp' came from.
27:51 - Judy Heumann, the disability rights movement and why her story remained untold. 31:26 - Second clip: Judy shuts down Madison Avenue.
34:26 - How Nicole got involved with the making of the film.
37:53 - How Jim and Nicole shaped the story to focus on the disability rights movement.
38:28 - How Higher Ground got involved, and what it was like working with the Obamas.
41:57 - How COVID-19 has affected the release of the film.
43:45 - Current issues facing the disability community.
45:35 - The impact Nicole hopes the film will have.
46:55 - Advice to parents with children who have disabilities.
47:50 - Future projects Jim is working on.
48:24 - What Nicole’s future looks like.
Resources:
Crip Camp: A Disability Revolution
Higher Ground Productions
Alamo Pictures
This Is Distorted
Connect with Jim LeBrecht:
Connect with Nicole Newnham:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 19 - Crip Camp: Cradle of the Disability Rights Movement
0:00
Hi, I'm Jim Lebrecht and I am co-director of Crip Camp with Nicole Newnham.
0:05
I'm Nicole Newnham and I'm co-director and co-producer of Crip Camp with Jim Lebrecht.
0:10
Wait, you want me to tell 'em what happened? Well, two people got crabs and they were spreading.
0:15
We were all very hyper about it.
0:17
I have to go shower some people. See you later.
0:22
I wanted to be part of the world, but I didn't see anyone like me in it.
0:25
I hear about a summer camp for the handicapped run by hippies. Somebody said you probably will smoke dope with the counselors. And I'm like, "sign me up".
0:26
Come to camp Jened and find yourself.
0:39
There I was! I was at Woodstock.
0:43
You wouldn't be picked to be on the team back home. But at Jened, you had to go up to bat.
0:49
Even when we were that young, we helped empower each other. It was allowing us to recognize that the status quo is not what it needed to be.
1:00
The world always wants us dead. We live with that reality.
1:04
At the time, so many kids just like me, were being sent to institutions. It was just a continual struggle.
1:11
Most disabled people, like myself, are unable to use public transportation.
1:17
We needed a civil rights law of our own.
1:22
A rehabilitation program has been vetoed by the president because it was cost prohibitive.
1:27
We decided we were gonna have a demonstration.
1:29
You get the call to action. "To the barricades."
1:32
A small army of the handicapped have occupied this building for the past 11 days.
1:36
So many people from camp Jened found their way into the building.
1:41
The FBI cut off the phones. The deaf people went - "we know what to do". That's how we communicated to the people outside the building. The Black Panther Party would bring a hot meal. We were like this.
1:51
We are the strongest political force in this country.
1:54
We will no longer allow the government to opress disabled individuals. And I would appreciate it if you would stop shaking your head in agreement when I don't think you understand what we are talking about.
2:08
What we saw at that camp was that our lives could be better! Y
2:16
Go!
2:16
If you don't demand what you believe in for yourself, you're not gonna get it.
2:27
Would you like to see the handicapped people depicted as people?
2:32
Excuse me?
2:39
That is the trailer for the Netflix documentary Crip Camp. And this is Factual America. Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. And every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.
3:26
Camp Jened was a seemingly innocuous summer camp for children with disabilities. But for those who attended in the 1970s, it was a utopia. Fostered by hippie values and unencumbered by the low expectations of society, a generation of summer campers with disabilities became a movement that changed the world. Recently we caught up with Jim Lebrecht and Nicole Newnham, the directors of the Netflix documentary Crip Camp. Not only did we learn more about one of the most compelling previously untold stories of our time, but we found out what it's like to work With Barack and Michelle Obama, and what is next on the agenda in terms of disability rights. Jim Lebrecht, Nicole Newnham, welcome to Factual America.
4:10
Great to be here.
4:11
Yeah. Thanks for having us.
4:13
Yeah, no problem. So Jim, I think you're in Oakland, how are things in Oakland these days?
4:20
Well, you know, I'm still sheltering in places very carefully and just trying to, you know, spend the time as best I can. I mean, you know, the world feels like it's pretty tough right now.
4:42
Yeah.
And I think one of the bright spots is the fact that our film has been, it feels meaningful in a time where things feel bleak. And that's been really a comfort.
And Nicole, what about you? I think you're in California as well. How are things? How are things for you under, we're about three three months in nearly with with quarantines.
5:09
Yeah. I mean, I agree with Jim it's like, you know, it's a time of, you know, real difficulty, but also real hope. I mean, I think, you know, we are finding that that kind of a message that Crip Camp has, of kind of young people really can make a difference and change the world, is not only a resonating, but actually we're watching it happen right now, you know. So, it's a time unlike any that I've ever lived through and, you know, I'm so sorry for all the pain that people are experiencing. And also, you know, I hope that we're going to find our way to something better.
5:53
So the film is, as you said, is a Crip Camp from Netflix. Absolutely amazing, recommended obviously to all our listeners, I mean, for those few people out there who don't have access to Netflix and haven't seen it yet, because I know it's been like on everyone's certainly last month, sort of top top films list to see during lockdown. Jim, I'll start with you. I mean, maybe you can give us a little background what is this, what's this film about?
6:25
Well, it's a film that starts off at the summer camp I went to, back in the early 1970s when I was 15. And if you really want a global answer then it's about community. It's about this group of young adults and kids who want to go into this incredibly special summer camp for folks with disabilities. And how the whole environment there, which was really kind of emblematic of the time of, you know, everything was changed in a society. Different liberation movements, you know, throwing out all the status quo that was there, and that included how people were regarding folks with disabilities. So they're treating us like patients, or something fragile. We were treated like teenagers. Just out there to have a good time. And my gosh, when you're treated that way, it just totally builds up your self confidence and how you feel about yourself. But key to all of that was our ability to really talk amongst ourselves about our situation. And, you know, for me, meeting Judy Heumann who is major character in the film, at the age of 15, and her being such a badass, you know, rights seeker, really set a course of my life in regards to realizing oh my gosh, we can actually fight back and win a suit. So, you know that was the kind of place camp Jened was.
8:10
I think you're obviously a great documentarian, because that's always the second or third question I get to, or somewhere in the podcast, where I ask you - what is this really about? I mean, we know what the subject is about, you've already said it's about community. I was gonna ask Nicole about that as well. But while I've got you here, Jim, I mean, what is it like seeing so much of your life up on screen?
8:31
Well, first off, just having first seen all of this black and white video was very surreal. Yeah, just kind of like looking through some kind of magic telescope to the past. I think that, having worked in documentary film for so long, and seeing what makes it big film versus a great film, so much of that has to really do with how much you relate to the people in the film. And that is something that, not only with my character, but with all of the people in our film, that Nicole and I were really able to reveal. And so for me, yeah, you know, why reveal all these things, personal things about yourself? The fact that, you know, I wore diapers up until the age of 15. Well, it's because, you know, you may get one shot to really talk about the disabled experience, and don't leave anything behind. Because when you really reveal yourself and talk honestly, it tends, for lack of a better word, humanizes people and makes you empathetic. And to really have some kind of impact with our film, you have to relate to the people. And you know, as a disabled person, from your experience that people can be fearful. They could be off put by so many of that. And I'm also incredibly grateful for the fact that the collaboration that Nicole and I had was full of trust. I've known Nicole for a long time, mixed three of her future documentaries. And I had asked her to make a film about the summer camp. And she asked me to co-direct with her. But it was this collaboration that provided me the safety and provided the basis for that, you know, what has turned out to be an incredible film.
10:35
I mean, I think you made so many good points there, I think, which all lead to questions that I certainly have in my notes, or you've already provided some of the answers. But I think...
10:46
Sorry about that.
10:46
No, no, no, don't be sorry. I think it's, I want to get Nicole in here real quick. But maybe Jim, one last point, as we're kind of looking at the very sort of, if we're gonna look at this linearly, the beginning of the story. I mean, maybe, for many people have not seen the film yet and many people are of an age who don't remember this era. But give our listeners an idea of what it was like to be disabled in the 1950s and 60s.
11:14
Well, I was born in 1956. But these are the days before curb cuts before handicapped parking spots. And the days before there were any civil rights protections for people with disabilities. So you basically we're living in a world that wasn't set up for you that didn't expect for you to be there and didn't really value your participation. In a nutshell, just the inaccessibility and the attitudes were very, very difficult. Now it's not like, here we are in 2020 and everything is just peaches and cream. It's far from it. You know, there's there's still so much stigma around disability. But I think that society has been confronting that and dealing with it. And things are certainly better. But, you know, the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, or a couple of curb cuts or fancy door handles don't make everything perfect.
12:25
Nicole, I want to ask you this as someone who's not disabled. I mean, why haven't we heard of this story before? Because I just sat there in amazement. I'm only 11 years younger than you are Jim, and since I was a kid, I've been watching the news. I remember when the American Disabilities Act was passed. I remember when some of these changes started happening. So it's not like this is all been a secret, but this has got to be one of the greatest stories I've never heard of. I mean, I don't remember any of these demonstrations and protests and things. Nicole, what do you think? Why haven't we heard this story before or we've just not been listening?
13:05
Yeah, I mean, I've been making documentaries for 25 years and a lot of them have been about social justice. And I studied history. And I vaguely knew about the disability rights movement, but a lot of this was news to me. And to be honest, I think quite a bit of the detail of it was news to you to, Jim, right? And actually, we've heard that from many other people. I don't think that anyone has ever really had the resources or the time or, you know, to get in, to delve into the footage to the extent that we were luckily able to do. And so I think the answer to that is just discrimination. You know, there's people have a vested interest in marginalizing this history, you know. And I think also people are uncomfortable about thinking about disability. And then we have these very kind of trope really unfortunate stereotypes that our brains track into us nondisabled people when we think about people with disabilities, because that's what we've been served up from the media. So it's like either the sort of inspirational character, you know, which inspires us to think that we can overcome things to because we see them overcome their disability. Or the kind of tragic character where we feel good because, you know, we don't have to struggle with these things in our lives. And, so a story about people with disabilities actually banding together and changing the world for all of our benefit is a story that reveals the capacity on genuity and the joy and the creativity of disability community, not just individuals, but also the the culture and community that's been created by people with disabilities. And it also reveals that, you know, disability is just like a part of the human experience, and that people with disabilities can contribute to making the world better for everybody. And those are things that our society just hasn't wanted to look at or contend with. But I think the other thing is that the reason that you haven't heard of this story of camp Jened, and its role and the role of that particular group of young people in kind of carrying that movement forward, is because it hadn't really been written yet. And I think it was sort of, you know, this really happy accident of Jim carrying that beautiful memory, you know, bringing it to me and us, you know, gathering together with Denise and Judy Heumman and the other people in the film and kind of saying like, okay, can we find footage of this? Can we find pictures of this? Can we bring this camp back to life? And can we look at whether or not there really was a link from this, you know, wild hippie liberatory summer camp in the Catskills in 1971, and then this earth shaking movement that came later. And, you know, luckily, we were able to really find and draw the line between those two things. And so I think that is a little bit of an original contribution.
16:42
Well, I think that's actually a good place to maybe look at one of the clips you've brought with you. And thanks to Netflix, as well, for sharing that. Do you want to set this up? I think it probably, it definitely leverages all that footage that you were able to get. And I think it shows people coming to the camp, but I'll let you set that up.
17:05
Yeah. So this is just a clip that combines, you know, the People's Video Theater footage of camp Jened, which was a radical video coalition that stopped by the camp in the summer of 1971 and happily spent five days there, filming with Jim and his friends but also handing Jim the camera. And Jim himself does some of the filming, which is really exciting and kind of extraordinary. And then also footage that was shot by some counselors who were trying to raise money for the camp. And Jim is still good friends with them. And so they were like, hey, I think we have a couple of reels of old color footage that we shot at the camp back in the day. And then, you know, some fabulous photographs that have been collected by campers and counselors over the year. And it really was our attempt to kind of show how, for people coming into the camp, it was kind of like coming into a utopia where they weren't judged and they were free, but also that it was like coming into the fullness of that particular moment in history. You know, right down the road from Woodstock, and right in the full kind of throes of the Summer of Love and the, you know, rock and roll and all the things that were happening at that time.
18:18
All right, well, then let's watch that clip.
18:21
I mean when Woodstock was happening, I remember being at my grandmother's listening on the transistor radio. And saying, I wish I could go, I wish I could go. And then when I went to Jened, it was like, there I was. I was in Woodstock. The music and the people. I just feel like these people are crazy, you know, I mean, in a good way.
18:48
Come to camp Jened and find yourself.
18:50
It was so funky. But it was a utopia. When we were there, there was no outside world.
19:31
All right, that was a great clip. I mean, Jim, did you know about that? You obviously knew about this footage because you were there when it filmed. But did you know it was still around or how did you go find it?
19:42
I had, you know, this vague memory of all of this going on and the only thing I really could remember was that this group that came out there, the word people was in their name. It was actually Nicole that tracked these folks down.
19:58
Wow, okay.
20:00
Wanna tell them the story, Nicole?
20:02
Yeah, let's hear the story, Nicole. How'd you find these guys? Are they still around?
20:06
Yeah, well, it was really, you know, like a needle in a haystack worth searching for, right? When Jim said yeah, I remember these guys and they came and they actually cut together this short crab video about the crabs epidemic at camp Jened which we feature briefly in the film. And, and so, you know, we knew that they had been there and that they had shot at least that. But then Jim had this memory of, you know, them strapping this quarterback on the back of his chair and handing him the camera. And so that became kind of like the Holy Grail. And, you know, I just basically searched through everything I could find about all radical video groups in that era. And finally, in you know, the back of a magazine. There was a tiny little ad, I was just like literally flipping through the pages. And at the back of it, there was a little notice that said "Crabs outbreak at camp Jened for the handicapped - by the People's Video Theater". And then we had the name. And then we were able to find out who was in the group. And finally I found one of them listed as being on the board of a radical bookstore in San Francisco. And so I went there and they said, well, we're not going to give you his contact information. But you can leave a note. And if, you know, he wants to get involved with you, he'll email you later. We'll hand it to him at the next board meeting. And sure enough, like a month and a half later, Jim and I out of the blue get this email from this guy, Howard Guts. And he's like, yes, I was there. I have five and a half hours of footage. We haven't looked at a lot of it since then. But it's in good shape. And we're actually happened to be midway through transferring it through a grant at this some video coalition that is in San Francisco. And so literally, we just drove over there the next week and met him at a cafe. And when he saw Jim come in, he burst into tears. Because here was this, you know, kid that they had handed a camera to 50 years ago, coming back and saying, you know, I want to take this footage you shot that was so meaningful, and carry this story forward. It was very beautiful. And they really were fantastic collaborators with us throughout the process. And you know, eventually we just get this hard drive full of all this miraculous footage that has not only Jim in it, but like Judy Heumann and Jim's first girlfriend. And all of these incredible scenes that no one who was involved in them, I mean, nobody remembers actually that message to parents scene, which is so beautiful, where the kids are sitting around the table talking about their parents. But yet there it is, you know. It was just one of those kind of miraculous things that happen in the world of documentary filmmaking sometimes.
22:51
That's an amazing story. What a goldmine. Because I think, as you both were saying earlier, about identifying with the characters, I mean, I felt like by the end, I kept referring to everyone by their first names in my head when I was thinking about them. And so much of that was seeing them as teenagers in those camp footage, which was absolutely amazing.
23:14
And there's something really wonderful about this whole thing. They could have come to the camp and ask the camp director - tell us how you're taking care of these poor, unfortunate souls. But they went right to us, and they said, tell us what you would like. Let's make a film about your camp. Tell us what you would like to say. And providing us that kind of agency or opening and respect was not something that happened every day.
23:40
One thing I wanted to ask is, Jim, I mean, did you guys actually call it Crip Camp?
23:49
No, well, no. Not at the time. But, you know, basically, it's a shorthand. And I remember a chord that O'Toole use in the film. You know, we've been friends for a very long time. And she say, hey, did you go to Crip Camp? And it was like, oh yeah, she means camp for people with disabilities. And in reality, the use of the word crip in the title, and just in our nomenclature has a lot of meaning beyond. And it really kind of speaks about reclaiming the word cripple. And it shows that I, and people like myself will use it, identify culturally as somebody with a disability. And that we have a real political bent to how we feel about it. So it is not a word that everybody in the community is happy to hear used. But certainly when it came down to the title of the film, it really became, it says everything, you know, in eight letters. That it's an edgy film. I was at Sundance a few years ago, and I was talking to a woman around the fireplace about it. Yeah, I'm working on this film about summer camp I went to when I was a kid, and she went, oh, that's nice. And it's like, no, no, you don't understand. I went there, because I heard I could smoke dope with the counselors. And she was, you know, so it's not your, it's not your typical trope.
25:29
What was in the water at camp Jened? What was it that just became this hotbed of, eventually, of activism? And we'll talk more about that in a few minutes. But what, I think you've alluded to it already as well, but what is it specifically about camp Jened, that just, it motivates so many?
25:48
I mean, I think it's two things. I think was a part of the time. But it was also honest to Gosh, Judy Heumann who, you know, that summer she had just prevailed in this lawsuit to get a teaching position with the New York City Board of Education. And that you see her in our film, I mean simply organizing the cook side off theater as an organizer. And trying to get consensus, or at least a good clear majority. Judy is, to this day, this dynamic woman who really just, you just want to join her cause whatever it is. And she really helped foster conversations that were going on on the books. And as she, you know, time went on, she started the Disabled in Action in New York and people got involved politically. It really did feel like groups like Disabled in Action were extension of the community a lot of us found the camp.
27:02
And it's an excellent segue to, because I did want to talk to you about Judy, who is, you know, there's so many heroes in this film, but she's obviously one of the main characters. Again, we can turn this one to Nicole. And I've already sort of asked you this question about why haven't we heard about this story? Well, why haven't we heard more about Judy Neumann? I mean, she's in the Clinton Obama administrations. It strikes me that there should be statues or she should be on coins or a postage stamp at least dedicated to this woman. Nicole, maybe you can talk a little bit about your interactions with Judy and again, is it the same story this sort of biases that why we haven't heard more about her until this film?
27:51
Yeah, absolutely. You know, that for me was kind of like in investigating this story with Jim, and meeting Judy and kind of realizing her power and reading more about her. And then, as we were researching all the archival footage, you know, getting these clips in and seeing the power of her, you know, I started to feel like wow, we sort of have the opportunity here to go back in time and see a great civil rights leader, you know, in the act of becoming who they are, as a teenager. And at the same time, tell one of the great untold civil rights stories of our time, you know. And I think, in the film we try to bring up and consider a little bit, kind of the importance of intersectional movements. You see the LGBTQ community coming in and helping during this takeover of a federal building that pushed for this legislation. You see the Black Panthers coming and bringing the food, you know. And I think with so many people with disabilities, they're dealing with being multiply marginalized. And so, with Judy, you know - she's a woman, she was a young woman, and she was disabled. And so I think, because of the way that the world looks at disability and looked at women at the time, you know, her story got kind of written out of history, and it really is an enormous, enormous shame. And luckily, you know, the film, I think, is bringing a lot of attention to her. And she wrote a fabulous book recently called Being Heumann, which you can get on Amazon and it's great and it gives more detail to her story, sheds a lot of light on it. And I just don't think it's the last that you'll hear of her either. She's like, she's, you know, she's got this also this really great kind of series of videos that she does called The Heumann Perspective. I think it's on YouTube, but you can find about it if you follow her on Twitter. And she's just, you know, a great leader and a great voice and, you know, it's time that the world embraces her. We felt like like sharing her story to Americans in particular would be a gift. It would be a gift to Americans to be able to hold that story. And the story of the movement in general and just say, this is a part of our history. It's like a badass, amazing, hopeful part of our history. And we're seeing now that the protests are happening all over the country in the last week or so. We're seeing so many references on social media to Crip Camp, you know, people are like, hey, you should watch Crip Camp. You know, kind of if they can do it, we can do it kind of thing. Or - here's how they did it, this is why we need to collaborate with other movements. And so that's really, makes us happy because we always intended to make a film that was an activating film, you know. That left people not in a place of like that was a nice little thing that happened in history, but more like yeah, we can do this and there's so much more left to be done.
31:12
I think that brings us to a good point to watch another clip. And we'll actually go to a break and over the break listeners and/or watchers can listen or watch that. But I think it shows Judy in all her power as part of the I guess they shut down Madison Avenue, is that right, Nicole? Is that the clip we're going to see now?
31:36
Yes, this was kind of the first big major kind of demonstrations that Disabled in Action, the group that Judy founded or co-founded in New York, sort of activated in New York City. And this was basically because of Nixon's veto of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act. And they, they had a demonstration and nobody was paying attention to them, there was no traffic going by. And so they just decided, well, we're going to go down to Nixon headquarters and we're going to get in the middle of the street.
32:17
Amazing. Okay, well, let's go watch that clip and give our listeners a bit of a break. And we'll soon be back with Factual America.
32:25
Disabled in Action decided to have a demonstration in New York City. In front of Nixon headquarters.
32:33
We decided that we were going to sit down in the street. We were going to stop traffic. So at 430 in the afternoon, we formed this huge circle, we cut off four streets.
32:45
You get the call to action. "To the barricades." You know, Judy, would call it.
32:51
I remember being on the ground with these big trucks coming at you. Going Whoa.
32:59
So it was a very unusual demonstration. I mean, people are not used to seeing a whole lot of folks in wheelchairs. And you have to back up. I mean, you have to back up. If you were on the wrong side in front of that young woman.
33:17
They were announcing: paraplegics stoped traffic in Manhattan.
33:26
There were only 50 of us. Basically, with one street, we were able to shut the city down.
33:36
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
33:56
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Jim Lebrecht and Nicole Newnham, directors of Crip Camp which you can see on Netflix. I want to change tack a little bit. I want to talk a bit about the project I think you've already mentioned something about how you two got together. But Nicole, how did you, how did you get involved with this? And how did you all get, you know, decided to make this film?
34:27
Well, Jim and I have been working together for a long time, I think for 15 years. And Jim is a really amazing creative sound designer and mixer with his own company in Berkeley that most of us documentary filmmakers in the Bay Area, of whom there are actually many, go to with pleasure with our labors of love when we're ready to mix and sound design them. And so I had worked with Jim on three previous feature docs actually. And all three of them actually have themes that kind of crossover what we've looked at in Crip Camp, you know. The power of young people to make change and sort of social justice in America. And, so I think Jim felt like I was somebody who was interested in the kinds of films that he was interested in seeing be made about people with disabilities and had not seen enough of. And Jim had become a really strong, powerful voice in our community and in our industry, kind of advocating for better representation of people with disabilities. And advocating also for better access for filmmakers with disabilities in our industry. So I was really interested in that. And luckily, he took me out to lunch one day and said, here's a few ideas I have about disability. I wonder if you might see a film in any of this. And I didn't immediately see a film in any of them, but luckily like, as we were heading back to our car. He said, you know, but what I've really always wanted to see is a film about my summer camp. And I kind of rolled my eyes because I was like, oh my god, everybody wants to make a film about their summer camp because everybody had like the time of their life and transformational experience at summer camp. But he was like. I said tell me why. And then he just starts describing this place. I was like, what are you talking about? I had no mental model for imagining disability community really. And I didn't have any mental model for thinking about like, wild, horny teenagers, smoking dope and listening to Bob Dylan at a summer camp with disabilities. And it was just joyous and fun and unexpected and intriguing. And then Jim, you know, said I've always had this theory that there was something about this liberatory experience at this camp and the movement that came later. And I was like, oh, that is really, really interesting. And then he sent me a Facebook page with all these pictures and I was completely hooked. So, at that point, we hadn't found the footage yet. We were thinking of casting young actors with disabilities and doing recreations. But it was only a week or so into thinking about this, that I came back to Jim and said, you know, this is not a film that I should be directing by myself. Like the whole really special thing here is that you're somebody within the film industry, who's creative and poised to make a film. And it's your story and, you know, your history and working together, we could kind of make a film that was told from an inside perspective, and that would be really radical.
37:43
And Jim, whose idea was it to interweave your story with the narrative of the disability rights movement?
37:53
I think that my story was a way to kind of introduce the audience into the world with disability. So I mean, I think that's the basic reason behind it. And I have to say that the narration in the film was really something that we crafted throughout the process and really honed in on how it could really tie things together, or finding things that need to be expressed.
38:25
Nicole, can I ask when did Higher Ground come on board?
38:28
Well, we kind of had a rough assembly of the film together. We were working on it with our editor and we had brought on this amazing executive producer Howard Gertler, who produced a film called How to Survive a Plague, which is an amazing film about the story of ACT UP. And he also had produced Wet Hot American Summer so he seemed like the perfect executive producer for us, summer camp movie and a civil rights story, a movement story. So he read in the trades, that Higher Ground was being formed and immediately thought, you know, this film would be a really great fit for them. Because Judy had worked in the Obama State Department. And also, you know, there's so many themes that are really resonant, I think, around kind of what the Obamas stand for, in terms of the importance of organizing and the importance of young people making change and the importance of community. So, we were really excited about it and we have this trailer and we, we maneuvered to get the trailer in front of Priya Swaminathan, who had just been hired to run the Obama's company Higher Ground. And she said, well, we're not really looking for anything right now because we're trying to figure out what we are, you know. And then she called back a couple weeks later and was like, wow, I don't really know what you guys have done, but I cannot stop looking at this thing. And so she said, I want to kind of fly up to Berkeley and meet you guys and talk with you and get to know you. And we spent a lot of time together. And we came to really feel over the course of that time that they saw, and Priya saw the same film we saw. And also not just what kind of film it was and had the potential to be, but the kind of potential it had to really make change in the world. So she said at one point, you guys have a culture shifting project. And so we ended up feeling just as excited about the prospect of working with her as working with the Obamas company and the huge impact that having that platform would enable the film to have. And luckily she called back and said, you know, we really want to roll up our sleeves and make this film together with you and the president and Mrs Obama feel the same way. So we still can't quite believe that that's all happened, but they were incredible to work with. And they reviewed cuts and gave feedback and, you know, they were active executive producers. That was great.
41:03
It's amazing. I was gonna just about to ask that question. How active were they, have you met them?
41:09
No, we haven't. But we've spoken with the president over the phone. Most of the notes were given through Priya but he called us before Sundance to wish us well and talk about the film which was, you know, a life highlight.
41:24
Imagine your executive producer is Barack Obama. Now, one last say on this project. I mean, you got it. You got it in the can. You got it finished. You're ready to go, well, you got it to Sundance, you won the Audience Award. And then it was getting set for a theatrical release, but then COVID-19 happened. How has that played out? Have you been disappointed? How have you dealt with that? Jim, do you want to take that one maybe?
41:57
Yeah, well, I mean, we were all set to go over to Europe, for the Human Rights Watch Film Festival and another festival in Copenhagen. And it was disappointing not to kind of continue on this road trip that we were on, let alone being in movie theaters. But, as it turns out, you know, everybody's having this shift, we shifted. Some festivals have wind up doing kind of screenings online or having everybody watch the film and then bringing us in. And those Q&A sessions have been really very intimate. And they've been really, quite special to be honest with you. And also, we don't have to worry about whether the theater can hold so many wheelchairs or not.
42:52
I was gonna say I saw something on Sundance, I mean, occured at Sundance. They all said plenty after this one line, but they said it's, there's limited wheelchair spaces, it's first come first serve. And then later said, do reach out to us if you have any questions or concerns. But I guess again, this gets to this sort of issue I wanted to get back to you, Jim. In terms of the disability rights, I think I already know the answer to this question is the fight over? I think you'd say no. And for us, for our listeners, what is next? What are the things that people in the disabled community really want to change and are fighting for right now?
43:45
I think some of the biggest issues are, certainly very timely with COVID, is this idea of healthcare rationing. And, you know, you could roll up to an emergency room and they, seeing you in a wheelchair could say, you know, we're not going to take care of you. And that kind of prejudice and sense of law, how are we judging all of this? And is it based on quality of life? And the last thing you want to do is ask a doctor about a disabled person's quality of life, because they're not the experts on things like that. But I think that the other issues are there, issues we've always faced. High unemployment. Lack of support services that allow us to live in the community, the kinds of funds that enable someone to afford to have somebody come into their home, get them up in the morning, get dressed, so they can go off to work and pay taxes, especially when we're looking in the face of a huge economic downturn. The funds for those kinds of social programs always are under attack. And the alternative is something that's actually more expensive, which is that puts people in nursing homes. Nursing homes are where well over 40% of the deaths of COVID are happening. Plus, it's a prison. And so, I mean, these are definitely, we could do a whole show on this. But the fact of matter I can't be in my wheelchair on an airplane, or use a bathroom in an airplane. I mean, that to me, feels draconian still.
45:26
Yes. And Nicole, as the co-director on this, what do you hope people take away from this film?
45:36
I think there's two main goals that we kind of identified in terms of the impact that we wanted the film to have. One is that we really wanted it to shift people's perception on about people with disabilities. We wanted to create a film that was immersive in such a ways that, by the time you came out of it, you felt like the people that you had been around in the film were your friends and people you loved, and that you would never really be able to look at disability in the same way if you were a nondisabled person. We wanted people with disabilities to see themselves and see their community represented and for that to feel authentic and true. And we wanted for people to come out of it kind of wanting to seek out and engage with disability rights and disability activism now. And also just frankly, to believe in the power of organizing and activism and in community as a way to make the world a better place.
46:38
And Jim, I wanted to give you the last word on this. Sort of a follow up question is - what would you say to parents who, whether it's with their preborn child, or maybe they're just recently born child, have a child diagnosed with disability, what would your advice be to them?
46:55
I think the most important thing is to not put your limitations or your limited expectations on your child, but let your child find their place in the world. Encourage them and realize that failure or disappointments from trying to live in the world is just part of life. And you shouldn't protect them from that. And through really living life fully they will find their own sense of worth.
47:29
And it's hard to believe but I think we're coming to the end of our of our time together. Jim, what's next for you? I know you're sound designer, you're documentarian, what's next for you? What projects are you working on? I know there are limitations because of needing to shelter in place and these sort of things.
47:50
Well, I'm currently looking just at options of how I can be involved with seeing other projects around disability and media get produced. And I'm hoping that I can interest people in some projects that are very important. So just being kind of part of that world, this has absolutely been the most meaningful thing I've ever done in my life and I want to continue doing things like this.
47:52
And Nicole, what about you? What's next on the agenda?
48:00
Well, Jim and I are having fun kind of exploring and thinking about possible narrative or scripted projects to come out of Crip Camp, which is really been kind of a joy to consider in the midst of the pandemic. And you know, I kind of am exploring other possible documentary and narrative projects and just praying that something with like a quarter of the authenticity and beauty of Crip Camp comes my way.
48:57
All right. Well, we're keen to sort of keep watching for your next projects. We'll have links in the show notes for our listeners about ways of being able to keep up to date with what you're up to now. I just wanted to thank you, Jim Lebrecht and Nicole Newnham for coming on to Factual America. It's been a joy having you. You're the directors of Crip Camp, which, just to remind people, that it can be seen on Netflix, as of June 11, it's still on. I want to give a shout out to This is Distorted studios in Leeds, England for opening up here, your studios to us. And just remind our listeners and watchers, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcast. This is Factual America, signing off.
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