The Roots of Black Friday: the ‘80s Cabbage Patch Kids Craze
In 1983 America was overwhelmed by a disaster, the likes of which it had never seen before. Hysteria led to riots; mayhem became the norm. And the reason? Chubby, potato faced toys: the Cabbage Patch Kids.
In this episode of Factual America, Matthew Sherwood meets Dan Goodman, co-executive producer of Billion Dollar Babies, a documentary about the rise and rise of the awkward looking but homely and utterly desirable Cabbage Patch Kids.
They discuss the origin of the Cabbage Patch Kids’ success, which can be traced back to the Post-Depression era but also owes a great deal to the improving economy of the early ‘80s and the increasing availability of credit.
But none of that would have mattered had the Cabbage Patch Kids not had that certain something that made them so special. Despite being mass produced, improved manufacturing techniques gave each doll a seemingly unique appearance. Each one could be ‘adopted’. And, most simply, they looked cute: cute enough to go through hell and high water at the local shopping mall for.
Dan shares how he managed to get the man behind the dolls’ success, Xavier Roberts, onto the doc, while he and Matthew also discuss the roles played in the film by legendary news anchor Connie Chung, and actor Neil Patrick Harris.
The Cabbage Patch Kids represent 80s excess at its best or worst, depending on your point-of-view. Step back in time to enjoy the good, the bad, and the immensely cute of it all with Matthew and Dan!
“You think about these Cabbage Patch Kid riots... and it’s not like we looked at that and thought, ‘Boy, that was a terrible idea!’... Instead, we go the opposite direction... and that’s where we got to this Black Friday mentality.” – Dan Goodman
Time Stamps
00:00 – Billion Dollar Babies trailer
02:06 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Dan Goodman, and his film, Billion Dollar Babies
04:15 – Dan explains what Billion Dollar Babies is about
06:34 – Describing the Cabbage Patch Kids dolls
10:09 – The roots of the Cabbage Patch craze
12:27 – Xavier Roberts: the man who made the Cabbage Patch Kids famous
14:34 – The Toy Shop Riots
15:56 – The 80s and 90s: A crazy time. From John Hughes to Black Friday Fights
19:39 – How Dan and his production company Believe Entertainment got involved with the film
22:10 – Dan on news legend’s Connie Chung’s involvement with the documentary
24:06 – The state of New York vs the Cabbage Patch Kids. An unlikely lawsuit
25:39 – Dan on how Neil Patrick Harris became the documentary’s narrator
27:11 – Discussing Believe Entertainment, the current ‘distribution landscape’, and streaming on YouTube in the latter’s early days
29:53 – Believe Entertainment’s move into podcasting
34:31 – What next for Dan
Resources:
Billion Dollar Babies
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Dan Goodman
More from Factual America:
Dog Days: The Truth Behind Gunther’s Millions
Working: What We Do All Day featuring Barack Obama
Pepsi, Where’s My Jet?
Transcript for Factual America Episode 148: The Roots of Black Friday: the ‘80s Cabbage Patch Kids Craze
Speaker 1 00:20
Three people were injured on a busy Black Friday.
Speaker 2 00:29
It wasn't always like this, but something happened in 1983, and we were never going back.
Speaker 3 00:46
The intensity of this search for these dolls.
Speaker 4 00:49
A full-grown woman taking a doll out of a child's hands?!
Speaker 5 00:52
They trampled everybody.
Speaker 6 00:53
The way in which people reacted in stores? This was new.
Speaker 7 00:58
What do we tell our little girl Christmas morning? What are we supposed to say? You've been good but Santa ran short??
Speaker 8 01:04
This is a story about the worst parts of capitalism.
Speaker 9 01:07
This nice lady created these dolls, and then this guy comes along, and he steals the idea.
Speaker 10 01:19
I don't know whether it's true or not true.
Speaker 11 01:21
Cabbage Patch Kids are original take Xavier.
Speaker 12 01:24
I used to think that it was illegal to talk about this when I was little.
Speaker 13 01:27
Anybody tells you, Oh yeah, we knew this was gonna happen. You would institutionalise them.
Speaker 14 01:30
I don't think there were any winners. The winner was money.
Speaker 15 01:36
Is this an advertiser's dream come true or a nightmare?
Speaker 16 01:46
I was scared to death.
Matthew Sherwood 02:06
That was the trailer for the feature documentary, Billion Dollar Babies: The True Story of the Cabbage Patch Kids. And this is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Cabbage Patch Kids were the 1980s toy craze that started it all. This unlikeliest of fads introduced America, and ultimately the world, to Black Friday, and all the trappings that we've all come to expect. Riots, scuffles, and mayhem, just to grab that last Must Have item on the shelf on the day after Thanksgiving. Joining us to discuss the film is Dan Goodman, producer and co-founder of Believe Entertainment. We have a lot of fun talking about the phenomenon that was Cabbage Patch Kids. Connie Chung and Neil Patrick Harris also get a mention. You won't want to miss this. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 03:06
Dan Goodman, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Dan Goodman 03:10
Everything's great. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Matthew Sherwood 03:13
Yeah, it's a pleasure. We're talking about Billion Dollar Babies: The True Story of the Cabbage Patch Kids. I guess it premiered at Tribeca last year...?
Dan Goodman 03:24
Premiered at Tribeca Film Festival last year. Yep, exactly right.
Matthew Sherwood 03:28
And now limited theatrical release in the USA and Canada on November 24, known as Black Friday to some of us and some of our listeners. Indeed. So, welcome. Great to have you on. Is there any chance of people being able to see it elsewhere? Is that still being worked out?
Dan Goodman 03:44 ** That's being worked on. But we definitely have plans to expand that distribution after this first theatrical window, for sure. So, we will keep people up-to-speed with all the latest info. Absolutely.
Matthew Sherwood 03:57
Okay. Sounds good.
Dan Goodman 03:59
It will be much more widely available.
Matthew Sherwood 04:02
I hope so! So, most of our listeners and viewers will not have had a chance to see this yet, most likely. So, maybe you can start us off. Tell us what is - what is Billion Dollar Babies really all about? Give us a synopsis.
Dan Goodman 04:15
Yeah. Well, Billion Dollar Babies is the story of the Cabbage Patch Kids, and really kind of digging into its origins. Some of which you might know about, and I think what you'll find from watching the film is there's a lot you didn't know about. But, you know, Cabbage Patch Kids was such a major iconic brand in the early 80s. It was one of those defining brands. And recently, as of, I don't know, a week or two ago, just got inducted into the Toy Hall of Fame. Finally, after many years of petitioning and applying. So, it's just, you know, it's one of those things. It's just, you know, it's been in the zeitgeist. This is the 40th year of its release. 1983 was really when it came to market. It hit with a bang, literally and figuratively, because it created toy crazed hysteria...
Matthew Sherwood 05:17
Right.
Dan Goodman 05:18
... you know, really unlike anything ever. You know, there were a lot of toy fads before but this was really the - one of the first times that toy shopping turned violent. People coming out of stores in ambulances. So, the documentary is really, you know, it's one part pop culture, and it's one part kind of exploring, like, what was the - what was happening to us as a society at the time that created this perfect storm? And, you know, what's happened since? What has it spawned? And what has it left in its wake, kind of thing.
Matthew Sherwood 05:57
So, I mean, believe it or not, for - I won't speak for you, I'll speak for myself - a lot of our listeners will have not, maybe, even been born when this thing happened. So, it...
Dan Goodman 06:06
Yeah, I was.
Matthew Sherwood 06:07
I'm very cognisant of what was going on. I mean, to put it bluntly, my wife was even saying, I think that was - I was already too old for that, by that point.
Dan Goodman 06:21
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 06:21
So, yeah, so...
Dan Goodman 06:22
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 06:23
But what are - I mean, they were a kind of an unlikely candidate...
Dan Goodman 06:28
Oh, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 06:28 (06:34)
... for - I mean, I didn't even know there was a Toy Hall of Fame, but you wouldn't have thought they would be in the Toy Hall of Fame when they got - so, what was - maybe you can describe what these things are, and why they became such a hit.
Dan Goodman 06:40
Well, you know, you bring up such a good point, because they are kind of an unlikely phenomenon as a brand, as a toy, because they - you know, they're sort of these potato faced looking like, you know, they're not Barbies, they're not like the, you know, most, like, cute, beautiful, whatever, dolls. They're kind of like, you know, a little awkward and weird looking, and they're sort of chubby, and they've got, you know, but they were - and they don't do anything, they didn't, have electronics, they didn't take batteries. But, you know, what we kind of delve into is a lot of the different things that made these dolls - and I'm sorry, we're not supposed to call them dolls, we're supposed to call them babies or kids. They are not d. o. l. l. s. as we learn. But, you know, the things that made these kids so relatable was partly because they did look kind of homely and unauthentic; like, they weren't - I mean, sorry, very authentic - they weren't, like, you know, models or Barbies, or whatever. They felt like - kids felt like they looked like them. And this was really one of the first mass customisation, you know, products on the market. Coleco leveraged a lot of the technology to be able to create all these, you know, kind of micro-variations of the things. So, different skin colour, different eye colour, different hair colour, different - you know, one's got dimples, one doesn't, one's got freckles, one doesn't, you know, and it's millions of combinations. So, the really, the uniqueness of each of these dolls became, you know, something that these kids could relate to. And then, you know, you adopted them. And that was a whole other thing of little boys and little girls becoming little parents. That was something very new. And the fact that they marketed to young boys, as well as girls was also very new. So, there were just a lot of things that really related to the kids in a pretty significant way that made them, you know, a really interesting - though I'm with you, unlikely, you know, product.
Matthew Sherwood 09:06
Yeah, and that's - I mean, my view is, I mean, obviously, my judgment's based purely on sort of appearances, but like it said - as you've just said, I mean, they're well ahead of their time in terms of marketing of it, being able to mass produce something yet make everyone think they've got something that's a unique doll. It's extremely diverse. They're not all blond haired and blue eyed, and all those things, and so it spoke to a really wide, wide market. And then at the same time, as you said, you use the Z word I was going to use myself actually, but you - set the scene, what is - so, this is happening; this guy, and we'll talk a little bit more about Xavier Roberts and others in a few minutes, but...
Dan Goodman 09:43
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 09:43
... this guy comes up with this idea for this - I'll say doll. No one's telling me not to say doll...
Dan Goodman 09:48 ** We can say dolls, nobody's gonna... yeah, they're not gonna come after us.
Matthew Sherwood 09:51
Okay...
Dan Goodman 09:52
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 09:52
Hopefully not. We don't want the Cabbage Patch police coming after us. But what was going on in America at this time that kind of became this sort of, I don't know, the pot that this could kind of grow in and become a craze.
Dan Goodman 10:09
Well, it's very interesting because, you know, the roots of it were not just what was happening in that moment, but from a consumerism perspective, we examine what had led up to that moment and what had happened in the past. And, you know, I think one of the things we uncovered that was so fascinating is you start with parents, who were kids, you know, growing up at a time when they're coming out of the Great Depression, and, you know, they just didn't have a lot. Their parents couldn't do so many things for them. So, as they became parents, and coming into, you know, the late 70s, early 80s, you've got this, you know, kind of maternal instinct to want to do for your kids, and it's normal, right. You want to do for your kids, things that you couldn't have yourself. You want to improve that generation. So, on the one hand, you have this kind of, you know, beginnings that started really a while ago, you're talking about, you know, the parents' childhoods. And now, coming out of a recession in the late 70s, into, you know, really kind of better economic times in the 80s, plus the credit card is becoming adopted, so, you start spending, and it's sort of casino-style, you don't really know what you're spending for the holidays. You know, so, this combination of parents really wanting to do for them, it's easy to buy, money's coming up a little bit more readily available. And it's, you know, the beginning of the 80s, which is, you know, maybe it was the most materialistic times in, you know, the last century.
Matthew Sherwood 11:59
Yeah, they didn't call it the Go Go 80s for nothing.
Dan Goodman 12:01
That's right.
Matthew Sherwood 12:03
So, you're, as you say, it's more than just Billion Dollar Babies, it's the, you know, it's The True story of the Cabbage Patch Kids. So, you capture the whole story, you track down Xavier Roberts, which I gather wasn't an easy thing to do.
Dan Goodman 12:21
It was not.
Matthew Sherwood 12:24
But then he makes quite an appearance. I mean, he's on for quite a significant time.
Dan Goodman 12:27
He was amazing. I mean, he'd never really done an interview of this substance before. Most of what he'd done in the past had been in TV style interviews or responding to a particular, you know, lawsuit they were in with Garbage Pail Kids, or whatever, whatever it was. He'd never really done anything extensive like that. And frankly, he just really hadn't done anything for 20 plus years. And he became a little bit, you know, he's just kind of a private person. And he just sort of came back, you know, sort of in the background. And so, tracking him down was really tough. Our director, Andrew Jenks would - was, you know, reaching out to old high school friends. We heard whispers that he was in the south of France. You know, it's like, it was wild, you know. It took months just to find a way to get in contact with him. And then, you know, we got in contact with Della Tolhurst, who is a really wonderful woman who was his president of OAA, which is Original Appalachian Artworks. That was the company that Xavier owned that started all of this. And Della was able to, you know, kind of get to know us and then encourage him to participate. And it was just, you know, we sat with him for three hours, I think it was; I mean, everything was on the table. We talked about everything. He was an open book. And I just - I really give him a lot of credit. He's a - was a terrific conversation. And I thought, completely fascinating, especially because all I knew of him was his signature on the rear end of the dolls up until that point, right. My sisters had all these Cabbage Patch Kids with, you know, this guy who signed the rear end of the dolls. I'm like, This doesn't make any sense. Why did he sign all the...?
Matthew Sherwood 14:17
It's a bit strange.
Dan Goodman 14:19
Yeah, but he answers that question, too, in the doc.
Matthew Sherwood 14:22
Yeah. I mean, you've got - I mean, you got toy exec. extraordinaire, Alfred Kahn, who - look him up, Google him. Name any toy of the last few decades and he's somehow...
Dan Goodman 14:31
... Alfred's involved.
Matthew Sherwood 14:33 (14:34)
Yeah. You document - who knew - the dog-eat-dog world of Appalachian craft fairs, lawsuits, riots, riots at shopping malls and big stores. Amazing - what - that footage of the guy - so, you have the one guy who describes being at that store.
Dan Goodman 14:49
Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 14:50
And then you've actually got the footage of the guy with the baseball bat. I mean...
Dan Goodman 14:54
Allan was there Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we got lucky. I mean, we had a number of archive producers that worked on the project. You know, we were able, and I think fortunate to find, a bunch of really great stuff that was out there. But yeah, the store manager was, you know, fearful for his life. And he stands up on the counter with an aluminium baseball bat, trying to threaten these people to back up and calm down, which I'm not sure standing up with an aluminium baseball bat is gonna get anybody to calm down, but he was freaking out!
Matthew Sherwood 15:31
And then spoiler alert, I mean, at the same time, they're throwing Beanie Babies - not Beanie Babies, sorry, Cabbage Patch Kids.
Dan Goodman 15:36
Oh yeah, yeah. He's like, You know what, forget it; they just started chucking the boxes into the crowd. He's like, Get out of my store: here. They don't even - I don't even think anybody paid for them. He just started giving them away. And throwing them over the counter. The police officers in there, the guard, they're throwing them to people. Pandemonium.
Matthew Sherwood 15:53 (15:56)
So, again, you know, for - you know, if I may say, you know, it is pandemonium and you give listeners and viewers a feel. I mean, imagine just - it has the look and feel of a John Hughes film, really. I mean, it is that...
Dan Goodman 16:04
Well, I'll take that as a very high compliment. Thank you. Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 16:07
I mean, and it's not just the hairdos and everything. I mean, but what is it about - I mean, any idea - what is it about the 80s and 90s? We have these crazes and manias. We have - I'm thinking of some other films that have come out: Pez Outlaw, Pepsi, Where's My Jet? These sorts of things...
Dan Goodman 16:12
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 16:14 ** It seems like a very different era. I think someone who has commented at Tribeca said it's like this sweet spot of innocent entrepreneurs and greed. But...
Dan Goodman 16:33
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 16:33
... you know.
Dan Goodman 16:34
Well, it's kind of - I mean, it's, you know, it's kind of American, it's capitalism, and it's really, I think, something that, you know, filmmakers have looked at for a long time is consumerism and capitalism, and, you know, what makes a great entrepreneur versus what makes somebody greedy. You know, that line is very thin between those two things, and also, there's just really kind of a, I think, innocence of a lot of these products that people, you know, as people know them, that, you know, really had some struggles or really had some very detailed backstories that are way more complicated than it seemed, you know, just to people out front. So, I personally find it fascinating. I think it speaks volumes about us as a society and what we find as a priority, because you think about these, you know, Cabbage Patch Kid riots, and people going to hospitals, you know, for trying to get these dolls. And it's not like we looked at that, and thought, boy, that was a terrible idea, let's take stock as a people.
Matthew Sherwood 17:49
Right.
Dan Goodman 17:49 ** Instead, we go the opposite direction. We go full bore into like, getting riot worthy toys, and it just never stops. And that's kind of where we got to this, you know, Black Friday...
Matthew Sherwood 18:02
Right.
Dan Goodman 18:02
... kind of mentality of, you know, to this day, people fighting over, you know, Furbies and Tickle Me Elmos and colour television sets and flat screens and computers. It's, you know, just - it never stopped.
Matthew Sherwood 18:15
Yeah, to the point that I think we're even kind of shrugging it off these days. I mean, they don't - do they even run those stories anymore?
Dan Goodman 18:21
It's really not shocking, anymore, right? "Six people trampled last night at K-mart for going in..." It's like, "Oh, that's too bad. But I bet they got great deals."
Matthew Sherwood 18:30
Exactly! I wish I couldn't...
Dan Goodman 18:33
I know! It's sad. It's really kind of sad.
Matthew Sherwood 18:37
I think we're gonna give our listeners and viewers a quick break. So, we'll be right back with Dan Goodman, producer of Billion Dollar Babies, and a host of films, and you're also co-founder of the academy and Emmy winning studio Believe Entertainment. So, again, Billion Dollar Babies, theatrical release on November 24, Black Friday.
Factual America Midroll 19:01
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 19:19
Welcome back to Factual America. We're here with Dan Goodman, the producer of Billion Dollar Babies. We've just been talking about Cabbage Patch Kids and the craze that they were, and they were...
Dan Goodman 19:32
... as one does!
Matthew Sherwood 19:33 (19:39)
... yes, that's what we do here. Um, so, maybe, you know, how did you and Believe Entertainment become involved with this project? Was it your idea or when did you become involved?
Dan Goodman 19:46 ** Yeah, it started with Believe, with me and my business partners, which a lot of our stuff does, as we're always - you know, we're a studio so we're always looking for ideas. And I remember one day driving - I don't know where I was, somewhere - and seeing a billboard for Black Friday sales, and it was kind of early in the season, and I'm thinking, Oh my God, here we go. And it was toward the - it was really the first Black Friday coming out of Covid; was the first time people were going to be allowed back into physical stores for holiday shopping. And I saw this Black Friday ad and thinking to myself, not only is it earlier than normal because they're trying to get people back into stores, but man, we've been cooped up for the last, you know, two plus years...
Matthew Sherwood 20:38
Right.
Dan Goodman 20:38
... and they're gonna let people loose inside retail stores, they're gonna lose their minds. People are gonna go crazy. And I'm thinking - this is, you know, people are gonna die.
Matthew Sherwood 20:50
Right.
Dan Goodman 20:51
And so, we just started having this conversation. I was like, Remember Cabbage Patch Kids? Remember how nuts people went for Cabbage Patch Kids and started, you know, killing each other to try to - you know, beating each other up to try to get these dolls? And we just started doing a little research because it was interesting to us. And, you know, what we found was there were a lot of toy fads before that were kind of nuts. Like, in 1977, there were Star Wars toys that were so popular that, I think it was Kenner that was making them at the time...
Matthew Sherwood 21:23
Right.
Dan Goodman 21:23
... they couldn't keep up with demand, they started selling empty boxes. So, you would go to, like, Toys R Us, you would buy the box, you would keep the receipt. And they would, like, take down your info and they'd mail you a bag of, you know, the toys...
Matthew Sherwood 21:38
Right.
Dan Goodman 21:39 (22:10)
... like three weeks later. So, I mean, there were some, you know, there were crazy things going on. But nobody leaving in ambulances. And I think that's where it really piqued our interest and was - we saw something bigger than just a nostalgia story, we saw a much larger story of kind of evolution of social behaviour, and, you know, and what and how we prioritise things as a society. So, we started looking into that even further. We were very fortunate to partner with NBC Universal Syndication Studios to co-produce with us, which is how we got to Connie Chung.
Matthew Sherwood 22:22
I was gonna ask.
Dan Goodman 22:24
Oh, she's so great.
Matthew Sherwood 22:25
Yeah.
Dan Goodman 22:26
She's so great. I mean, she is such a character: lively, smart, fun. She is just - I cannot say enough great things about Connie. She's terrific.
Matthew Sherwood 22:37
I mean, for those of you who don't know, she's an 80s and 90s news icon. I mean, you know, there was no bigger name in news, really, at the time. I mean, there were big names, but she was right up there, was Connie Chung.
Dan Goodman 22:48
She was right up there, yeah. And she did this interview on The Today Show on NBC that she calls a five minute commercial.
Matthew Sherwood 22:58
Yeah.
Dan Goodman 22:59
You know, one of my favourite lines or stories that she recounts in the doc is, she says, you know, giving away five minutes on The Today Show, is - this is so valuable, the airtime is just so valuable. And she says, if we had had a world, a Middle East world leader on the show, would we have given that person five minutes? She says, I can't say that we would have.
Matthew Sherwood 23:26
Yeah.
Dan Goodman 23:27
So, it just - you really get a sense of how big this thing was...
Matthew Sherwood 23:35
At a time...
Dan Goodman 23:35
.. it just puts it in perspective.
Matthew Sherwood 23:37
Yeah, and at a time before the internet, and so, you know, it was even, you know...
Dan Goodman 23:41
That's right.
Matthew Sherwood 23:41
... Network TV, advertising - Madison Avenue rates, I don't know what they would have been, but I - you know, that was the only game in town...
Dan Goodman 23:47
... precious airtime.
Matthew Sherwood 23:48
Precious airtime. And this gets back to this whole mentality that your film also talks on. You tell people there's a shortage that makes them even want it more, you know.
Dan Goodman 23:59
Well, there's so - they would say...
Matthew Sherwood 24:01
They even pull the advertising, you know, I mean, and it's still - people, you know, it didn't stop anyone.
Dan Goodman 24:06
Well, there was a claim filed by New York State against Coleco accusing them of harassing children. This is real. This happened. Accusing them of harassing children because you cannot advertise a product that you cannot buy. And they were not in stores. So, they pulled the ads and like you said, they made this big announcement: we're pulling the ads, we're not doing anything and, of course, it just created more craziness around the product thereafter. But - I mean, it's a great - this is where the reality is way stranger than fiction. You couldn't make that up about harassing children. I think it's just an amazing commentary on what was happening at the time.
Matthew Sherwood 25:00
Yeah, and the US is not a litigious country. But I mean, it's like - I mean - and I should just stress to those who haven't seen it, I mean, it is true - I mean, you're not exaggerating: they are riots. There are riots happening at these stores. You have it documented. There are people being hurt. I mean, not that we want to revel in that, but it is - I mean, it is happening, and it's kind of like other things we've - we had a guest on one time who, you know, similar thing. Oh, you're from Jersey: Class Action Park. But...
Dan Goodman 25:27
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right, yeah, of course. Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 25:30
... and I said, Well, I couldn't help but laugh at some of these stories. He goes, Well, that's just human nature, because it is - you don't know what else to do.
Dan Goodman 25:36
You don't know what else to do.
Matthew Sherwood 25:38 (25:39)
But it is true. But, I mean, besides Connie Chung, I mean, you also - how did you get Neil Patrick Harris to narrate this?
Dan Goodman 25:44
Yeah. Neil. So, Neil Patrick Harris, he's terrific. And, you know, we really wanted somebody who, you know, first of all, felt like he, you know, or she, belonged in the time; obviously, a very iconic, you know, character from the 80s. And somebody who lived it, who experienced it, who knew it firsthand. So, it was really important to us that authenticity of having somebody involved like that, and then Neil's - his just - his talent, and one of his great talents is just the ability to, you know, deliver his lines with this just the right twinge of subversiveness that was so perfect for what we were trying to do. He's just mastered that art. And he's so great at it, because let's face it, it's Cabbage Patch Kids, right; you can't - I mean, you can't take it too seriously but there are serious things and interesting things that happen. So, we just, you know, we just reached out to his team. We happened to be at the same talent agency, and we just reached out to his folks. I wish I could say there was more to it, but he just sparked to the idea, you know, and was like, Yeah, I'll do it. That sounds great. And he was just a real pleasure to work with; again, I can't say enough nice things about him.
Matthew Sherwood 27:10 (27:11)
Yeah, I know, I realise we don't have that much time left together. But I do want to ask you a few more questions, if I may. So, I mean, you know, Believe Entertainment, you co-founded it. I mean, it even says on your website, talks about the ever changing distribution landscape.
Dan Goodman 27:28
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 27:29
You released this in 2022, you're now getting it out now. What does that say about distribution? And where we are right now?
Dan Goodman 27:36
You know, it's a great point. Because on the one hand, there's so many amazing new ways to distribute content and get it out there. And then in a lot of ways, it's, you know, just as challenging as it's ever been. You know, I think, right now, there's a lot of change going through the business obviously with, you know, the strikes that have just recently ended, you know, as a big part of just kind of taking stock in the new distribution landscape, a big part of that had to do with, you know, the success of shows. When they go on a streaming platform, it's really hard to determine the success of those shows, there's no real, you know, residual formula like there is for hit movies or TV shows, kind of where everybody, you know, participates in the success. So, I think the industry is going through a real evaluation process of what that landscape looks like, going forward. We kind of started our business in early days, you know, of digital distribution...
Matthew Sherwood 28:48
Right.
Dan Goodman 28:49
You know, specifically because - this was before, you know, any of that streamers or any of that stuff existed - you know, so when we're talking about streaming, it was like, partner with AOL and Yahoo, and, you know. I mean, really early, early days. I mean, we did one of the first shows on YouTube, when YouTube told us they weren't going to do content, they were just a tech company. But, you know, if we want to figure it out and put our stuff up there, great, you know. So, I mean, it was early, early days, but the whole idea was finding a way to connect more directly with audiences, especially when you have great talent, who kind of command their own audiences, you know, and we still believe in that, and we still believe in that approach. So, we're always trying to find, you know, new ways of developing this stuff and, you know, the theatrical release for Billion Dollar Babies is just going to be the first part of, you know, what's going to be a multi-phase strategy of releasing this in market.
Matthew Sherwood 29:47 (29:53)
And also, and it's part of the connecting with the audience. Is that sort of, I've noticed that you've really moved into podcasts as well. Is that part of that...?
Dan Goodman 29:58
We have - we - yeah, you know, again, we're an anomaly in that we just, you know, we kind of follow the things that we think are interesting. We really love the scripted podcast world, we just released a series about Alice Roosevelt, Theodore's oldest daughter, who was sort of the original rebel daughter, smoking, driving in cars with boys, drinking, you know, and this is, you know, 1900. And it's a great story. It's on Audible right now. It was our first, you know, kind of start in scripted podcasts and stuff. But yeah, I think we're trying to find ways of telling great stories in different venues and accessing a lot of different distribution means, you know, to get the stuff out there.
Matthew Sherwood 30:52
Yeah. And is that a way - do you see it as a way to develop, trial ideas that then you might bring to the big screen or the small screen? Or do they stand on their own?
Dan Goodman 31:01
You know, I think it's both. You know, the scripted podcast of it, it does require - I mean, it does require a pretty significant amount of work to do those things, because they're really like old school radio shows. You know, it's - I mean, I think we had 85 speaking parts in this thing, you know, including all the extras and what have you, right, but, so, you know, we had a lot of voice actors, some, you know, some great lead talent like Emma Roberts and Tony Goldwyn, and Maggie Siff, Behzad Dabu. And it just - there's a lot of work involved in that, so you really can't do it only because you want it to be a TV show. It's like getting an MBA because you think it's gonna look good on a resume. Well, yeah, it might look good on a resume, and will probably help you with a job later but it's a lot of work, you know, to get an advanced degree, to get a master's degree, right. So, it's the same kind of thing, I think, you know, we hope that it leads to other things. We think it's a great way to test stuff out, get to know the characters and really delve into their worlds. But it's also something that we love, and we're very proud of in this form, because it's a really fun, interesting way to create something, you know, leaves a lot to the imagination that you have to fill in, by only listening and not being able to see something in front of you.
Matthew Sherwood 32:27
And if I'm doing my job, then I take this back to Cabbage Patch Kids, which is all about people using their imagination.
Dan Goodman 32:33
That's right. Very well done.
Matthew Sherwood 32:35
Yeah, exactly. I know you've got to go but - and I've done my best Connie Chung in terms of giving you some five minutes for Believe Entertainment, I think -
Dan Goodman 32:46
I think you have, which I appreciate.
Matthew Sherwood 32:47
But it's interesting, because we, you know, our audience - it's something I've seen with others, and I'm not gonna ask the Golden Age documentary question, but it feels kind of like maybe that's kind of where we are with podcasts, isn't it? I mean, there's something. I mean, everyone seems to have podcast these days. There's loads of them, but there's not enough good ones, I would say, and so...
Dan Goodman 33:08
Agreed.
Matthew Sherwood 33:10
You know, it does seem like it's an interesting new - it's got an excitement to it.
Dan Goodman 33:15
Well, I think it's very accessible. Unlike anything else. And to me, that's always been, I think, an interesting way of thinking about it, because it's reaching people in this sort of convenience world where they can bring it with them very easily, put on some headphones and listen to it; or, they sit in the car and listen to something; or, you know, and you can listen to it in parts. So, I think it's just because of the nature of our, you know, fractured, hurt, lives. It's something that just works really well in everybody's, you know, schedule, for a lot of ways. And then I think people have been very creative recently. I mean, I think there's a lot of real creativity, which is why I go back to this like, yeah, it's a way to develop for other stuff, and hopefully it goes places, but there's something kind of magical about it. You know, there's something really, I think inspiring to a lot of people. It's very accessible, it's very approachable. And I think it brings people - listeners - very close to the people that they're listening to, in a very intimate way that I don't think TV delivers. It's a very different experience, I think.
Matthew Sherwood 34:30 (34:31)
Okay, well, one last thing and then we'll sign off. What's next for you and Believe Entertainment? Anything like Dear Basketball in the works or...?
Dan Goodman 34:40
Yes, yes, yes. Well, there are - there are a number of documentaries in development and there are two that will be coming out on Peacock, NBC's streaming channel, one in February and one next spring, that we'll be an announcing very soon. One in the music space, one in the sports space, that we're real excited about, and we're just finishing production on.
Matthew Sherwood 35:07
Well, if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again.
Dan Goodman 35:11
I would love it! That'd be great. Absolutely.
Matthew Sherwood 35:14
Well, thank you again, Dan. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Dan Goodman, producer of Billion Dollar Babies, and a host of other films, and he's also co-founder of the academy and Emmy winning studio, Believe Entertainment Group. Billion Dollar Babies theatrical release November 24. What else are you doing on Black Friday? You don't need to go shopping.
Dan Goodman 35:35
That's right. Who needs to shop? Go see a movie.
Matthew Sherwood 35:38
Go to the theatre, or, you know, it's probably the local theatres probably not too far from all the shopping venues, anyway...
Dan Goodman 35:44
That's right.
Matthew Sherwood 35:45
So, make a point of checking it out, and I'm sure you'll find it fun and as enjoyable as I did. So, thanks again, Dan.
Matthew Sherwood 35:51
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 36:38
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