Allen v. Farrow After the Media Storm

Hollywood icons Woody Allen and Mia Farrow had a 13-year relationship that ended in flames in 1992 in front of the nation's eyes.

At the centre of the breakup were allegations that Woody Allen sexually abused Dylan Farrow, the daughter he had adopted with Mia Farrow. The case and the resulting fallout still resonate nearly 30 years later. The scandal has been resurrected this year with the release of the HBO docuseries Allen v. Farrow.

Joining us to discuss the social and cultural consequences of this story, the film and the reaction are the Emmy Award-winning filmmakers Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering.

“Dylan Farrow stood strong, and provided an example to Hollywood, to the country, and maybe in some ways to the rest of the world, about the courage of coming forward and standing by your truth.” - Kirby Dick

Time Stamps:

00:10 - Allen v. Farrow trailer and who our guests are. 
03:05 - What the reactions to the docuseries were upon the release.
04:11 - The synopsis of Allen v. Farrow.
06:44 - Why this film has been made now.
09:53 - The investigation and why some people refuse to watch Allen v. Farrow.
13:00 - How Amy and Kirby got involved with this story and its connection to #MeToo.
15:50 - How the co-directors and investigators approached the story.
21:00 - How Woody Allen's version of events came to dominate the narrative for many years.
23:00 - How the Farrows reacted to the filmmakers, and why they were reluctant to participate.
27:00 - The long lasting effects of sexual assaults and sexual harassment.
29:30 - What was most surprising about the original case and the filmmakers' own investigation.
36:00 - How Amy and Kirby got access to Dylan Farrow’s home video footage.
41:10 - What are the social and cultural consequences of this story.
44:39 - The structure of the Allen v. Farrow docuseries.
50:38 - How Amy and Kirby started making investigative films about difficult subjects.
54:50 - The key to creative partnership in filmmaking.
56:50 - What is next for Amy and Kirby.

Resources:

Allen v. Farrow (2021)
The Hunting Ground (2015)
The Invisible War (2012) now available on HBO Max 
Twist of Faith (2004)
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Amy Ziering: 

Website
IMDb

Connect with Kirby Dick: 

IMDb

More from Factual America:

White Boy Rick: A Call for a Better American Justice System
Murder Among the Mormons: The Mark Hoffman Story
Moment of Truth: The Murder of Michael Jordan's Father
Connecticut Film Industry Tax Incentives: A Comprehensive Overview

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20 Craziest Celebrity Conspiracy Theories
A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Three Act Structure in Documentary Films
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 58: Allen v. Farrow After the Media Storm

Amy Ziering 00:00
Hi, I'm Amy Ziering and I'm a documentary filmmaker.

Kirby Dick 00:03
Hi, I'm Kirby Dick. I'm a documentary filmmaker as well.

00:08
But this is a case unlike anything that the state of Connecticut had confronted.

Speaker 2 00:13
The report says Farrow may have coached the child to tell the story.

Speaker 3 00:17
A terrible thing is being done to the kids.

00:21
Who on earth could believe that of Woody Allen? I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.

00:29
The father is Woody Allen. Writer, director, actor. The mother is Mia Farrow, his co-star and the mother of his three children.

00:37
I want to make sure that we're not talking about some type of a Hollywood relationship that's just gone bad.

00:46
State police confirmed that they are investigating the director.

00:50
Allen denies child abuse.

00:51
Woody gave a press conference and our jaws dropped.

00:56
No matter what you think, you know, it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Matthew 01:03
That is a trailer from the HBO docu-series, Allen v. Farrow, and this is Factual America, brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Today, we're talking about Hollywood icons Woody Allen and Mia Farrow, who had a 13 year relationship that ended in flames in 1992 in front of the nation's eyes. At the center of the breakup were allegations that Woody Allen sexually abused Dylan Farrow, the daughter he had adopted with Mia Farrow; the case and the resulting fallout still resonates nearly 30 years later. The scandal has been resurrected this year with the release of HBO headline grabbing docu-series Allen v. Farrow. Joining us to discuss this story, the film, and the reaction are the Emmy Award winning filmmakers Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering. Kirby and Amy, welcome to Factual America.

Kirby Dick 02:01
Thank you. Glad to be here.

Amy Ziering 02:02
Nice to be here.

Matthew 02:04
It's great to have you on as the listeners have heard or those on YouTube will have seen the trailers. The film is Allen v. Farrow, that's - how are you guys calling it? Are you calling it Allen vs. Farrow or - for our listeners Allen v. Farrow is like a - basically the law how you would do it in US law. It's the case, isn't it?

Kirby Dick 02:26
Exactly. Yeah.

Amy Ziering 02:28
How you a title a Legal Brief.

Matthew 02:29
Yes. So this is released in the US on HBO in February, released in the UK, here on Sky. And I imagine it's still available to stream on HBO Max. And I think you're in the UK Now TV and for all of you other people, I'm sure you can find it, you can just google it somehow. So, thanks again, so much, Amy and Kirby for coming onto the podcast. Congratulations. I mean, certainly at the very least, you've been making a lot of news these last few months. So, Amy, how's the reaction been? How have you found it?

Amy Ziering 03:06
Oh, amazing. Beyond, beyond, beyond amazing. I mean, you never know how things are going to land and particularly these days with COVID. And people not being able to congregate in the ways they used to and see things and discuss them and have that kind of a release. We were, you know, we didn't know what to expect. But it's been astonishing. I mean, like, social blew up. We were trending on Twitter, every time a new episode premiered here in the US. And, you know, the discussion has been really fascinating and in-depth and nuanced and enlightening. So, I mean, it's - we've been super, super happy. It's opened up a conversation about child abuse and incest. That, you know, we're really gratified to see happening at long last.

Matthew 03:54
Excellent. I mean, I think before we go any further, I mean, it may be because of that media storm, it may be seem odd to put this forward to you. But Kirby, may before we go any further, you can give everyone a little bit of synopsis about what the docu-series is about.

Kirby Dick 04:11
You know, it focuses on the allegation that Dylan Farrow made against Woody Allen about child abuse, and that happened in 1992. And then, you know, we follow the story. Well, we follow - we start actually the story even before that, where how, as you said, Mia Farrow and Woody Allen, you know, were collaborators for 13 years. So, we begin with, you know, how they met. So, it's about a 40 or 50 year story here, and we look at all aspects of it from the, you know, from the personal from the relationship. And then of course, we dig deep into the case because one of the things that's really struck us about this is the way it was presented when it first came forward in 1992 and '93 was really only a small part of the story and it was a really skewed part of the story - skewed toward Woody Allen - and we were able to get, you know, 10s of 1000s of pages of documents that were not available to the public and really look at this much more comprehensively. And then it follows after that - it follows, you know, how over the next 30 years this played out in the public, because keep in mind that this case was the most high - we think it's the most high profile incest case to ever, you know, be covered in the United States and how the press reacted and how the public will learn from this affected the way this country looked at, you know, issues of incest, how the law profession did, how you know, journalism covered it for decades.

Amy Ziering 05:46
And still does to this day. I mean, this case became sort of a template for the ways in which court - family courts work in the US ever since. And that's what's really significant and important about us. Yeah, so, we're gonna say it just in a slightly different way and more compact, you know, this is a in-depth investigation into the allegations that were made, and - by Dylan Farrow against her father, Woody Allen. And it's the first real, real, no stone unturned look at the facts and the evidence, which until now, we didn't know and the public really wasn't privy to, and how does that change things and affect and influence our perspective on what happened and how it influenced the course of history.

Matthew 06:28
And I mean, you'll appreciate the old print journalist in me will just come out and say that Woody Allen has refuted these allegations, just so we're clear with everyone. But, Amy, why make this film now?

Amy Ziering 06:43
Why not?

Matthew 06:44
Yeah, well, exactly. But I mean, you know, what was...

Amy Ziering 06:46
I love that question, but I think it's so funny, because, well, as I said, this wasn't just something that happened in the past, this is something that happened in the past and has palpable, real consequences today. I think that people don't know that or understand that. And so I'll repeat it and say that the strategy that Woody Allen used to defend himself against these allegations was to invert the narrative, was to say, 'It's not me, I - it's not - I didn't do this, I am actually the victim'. And that strategy became what, to this day, fathers when they are accused of abuse, that's their first go to is to say, 'It's not me, it's the mother, she's crazy'. It's - there's a term that someone coined called DARVO for this, which is deny, attack, reverse victim and offender: DARVO; you just simply flip the tables. And he did that so well. And so effectively, that, you know, this story was pretty much buried and everybody thought they knew it. And oh, well, you know, we don't really know. And we love Woody, and she's probably crazy. It kind of stuck. And so that's why we felt it was important, you know, and isn't a story in the past. It's a story that's - it reverberates right now and has even more urgency to really look at, evaluate, and learn from.

Matthew 06:46
Okay. I think it's a good point. I mean, just to interject, personally, I mean, as someone who was living in the US East Coast at that time, if anything, if I was trying to think back, what would I - I mean, I was pretty young, but what do I remember of that and it's more, if nothing else, you thought it was this horrible custody battle, basically, this divorce, or that was - or not a real divorce because they were never married, but I mean, you know, this messy breakup that was playing out in front of our eyes. And that's just kind of how we, I mean, I think some of us may have simply remembered it, and then boxed it and shelved it, I guess, all these years.

Amy Ziering 08:42
Exactly. But that wasn't accidental. I mean that was part of the strategy. And we all fell for it, you know, as we show in the series, you know, and actually, I just could go back to the title Allen v. Farrow, you know, that in itself encapsulates the whole dilemma, right? We thought that this was about - it erases and effaces that this was actually about a child crying out about abuse, and suddenly it becomes about a father saying that, you know, his - he's being falsely accused. And that was the public narrative that ran and everyone - we had - and had traction and still did and that you were susceptible to and I was, you know of that age, too.

Matthew 09:20
I mean, interesting point for some of you who even thought about this, but it kind of has echoes of Kramer vs. Kramer doesn't it, which was a film that had been really, really big in the... in the - I can't remember when that came out. But I guess the 70s or early 80s. But Kirby I mean, it is a story that still divides even as I guess you found out after you've, you've released this. And it's kind of a he said she said she said sort of thing in some people's mind.

Kirby Dick 09:51
Well, we found in a lot of people's minds, a lot of people who have that opinion that it's still unknowable or people who have refused to watch the series. It's very interesting. People do not want their conception of reality shifted, and they will do whatever they can to avoid that. So - but I think for most people who watch the series and see how much evidence there is, how consistent Dylan is, how many, I mean there were multiple investigations into this by state agencies, and all the people who sort of led those investigations for each of those believed Dylan. I mean, over and over and over again, you know, she comes off, I mean, her presentation of the facts are supported by a wide range of supporting facts. So, you know, there's always going to be people who - I mean, we live in a misogynistic society, there are always going to be people who are going to want to believe this icon that they've identified with. In fact, what's really interesting is that there's a lot of what we realized very early on, is that critics very open, you know, open minded critics who are interacting with us, were really struggling with the fact that this icon, you know, Woody Allen, he's an - he's a very, you know, good filmmaker, no question. And a lot of critics came up with him and identified with him. And it was very hard for these critics, even though they accepted the facts, still to actually shift their allegiance, and it was a struggle. They were, you know, and that was interesting to us, you know, we hadn't actually thought about it from the point of view of the critic who for so many Woody Allen is his formative, really. And for some people, it's why they probably went into film criticism.

Matthew 11:56
You do touch on it, one of the episodes, too, about this, these public personas, and how difficult it is for some of us to acknowledge that they may be at the very least flawed, or even worse.

Kirby Dick 12:12
For all of us, for all of us. I mean, everyone, no one - we are, we're, you know, ourselves as well, we're all subject to identifying with our, you know, people who we, you know, idolised, I suppose in some ways.

Matthew 12:27
I'm not assuming you've seen any of our episodes, but what we tend to do is we do tend to go through the more of the story, and then we get into sort of more of the filmmaking side, but I think, because it's been out for a couple months, and it's made such a big splash, I don't, I mean, we'll talk certainly, certainly, we'll talk more about the facts of the - a bit of the facts of the case and what you've found while you were doing this, but I think, hence why I'm asking some of these questions now, kind of more upfront, because it's kind of an interesting, kind of looking back on, on the reactions and everything. But how did you all, you know, get involved with this? This, specifically, Allen v. Farrow. I mean, did you start off making that film? Or was there a - Amy, were you looking to make something different, and then this subject kind of came along?

Amy Ziering 13:16
No, we very much we're not looking to make this film. I like to say that our films find us and this is a really good case study of that. We were making something entirely different. And we just were interviewing Dylan for what we thought was going to be a very different project, just looking at women who spoke up in the wake of Me, Too, and what the different reception of their testimony was, and we had five days in Brooklyn, and we have five interviews a day. And she was one of those interviews for that what we then envisioned as a series, but in the course of doing the interview with her, we were like, wait, what? What? So much that she said didn't accord with, as you pointed out, was the dominant narrative that we all believed and grew up to believe and so, you know, we sidebarred, we talked with Amy Herdy, who's our amazing lead investigator, producer, and our producer and our co-creator of the series, and she said, 'Let me get let me go at this. I see - I'm - there's so much more there. Let's let's do a deep dive and so we were like, sure, okay, you know, why not? Let's see what it yields. And that was its genesis, and we really did just follow the trail of breadcrumbs and follow the facts. And it really is for those that haven't seen it, it's a riveting thriller. I mean, you know, you do see this sort of, you know, curiosity and inquiry and very open mind and we didn't know where it would land until, you know, as Kirby said, we just - there we didn't know there were eyewitnesses, you know; that we didn't understand that the custody case was actually came only in a reaction to you know, the initial Dylan, you know, having said this to a pediatrician at some point and so that, you know, the best defense is a good offense and the best thing is to distract and so he immediately pivoted and you know, decided, like...

Kirby Dick 15:01
He sued for custody.

Amy Ziering 15:02
... and let's sue for custody when there was like, no, you know, and so we anyway, so we kept going down all the different rabbit holes and that's how the project came about.

Matthew 15:09
Okay, following those rabbit holes, then, was the idea to say okay, this is going to be - I hate to put this because I'm not trying to mimic what some, maybe some, others have said; I actually do my best not to read what others have said, but I mean, you saying, I know that you've got titles that say you've reached out to Woody Allen and Soon-Yi who's - well, we can go a little bit more about who some of these people are for people who are not familiar, and one of the Farrows, but - was it your intent going in? We're going to try to tell both sides of the story, or did that become precluded from you? How did you try to approach that? Because, obviously, the people have the main voice are certainly Mia Farrow, and rightfully, Dylan Farrow in this.

Kirby Dick 15:57
What we do, and what we did in this case, is we're going to tell the truth, we're going to tell the story, right. And so, we, you know, we investigated, and again, I just want to give a shout out to our co-creator, Amy Herdy, who's, in my opinion, you know, one of the best if not the best investigator, and, you know, investigative reporter, you know, looking into sexual assault crimes in the country, and she was able to get so much information that wasn't out there. And that allowed us to really make an accurate presentation of the story. Now, obviously, you know, it didn't surprise us that Woody Allen came out and said, 'Oh, no, that's not true. That's the - that's not - that's the wrong side of the story'. But we actually - we actually put his position in the film all the way through, you know, he did a book, he wrote a book, a memoir, Apropos of Nothing, and, you know, then read an audio book of that, and his voice is in the film where, you know, talking about the whole the whole history of this meeting Mia, you know, adopting Dylan, the case - everything, so his position is in there. The other thing to keep in mind about Woody Allen is, he doesn't have much more to say, than what he said in 1992, which is, 'I didn't do it'. He will not go into detail of that day. There was an incredible amount he avoided - You know, he was not straightforward. You know, he avoided being interviewed by the police for months and months, you know, so basically, what he - and even if he did an interview, which we would loved him to do, and we, you know, obviously offered him the opportunity to, I'm sure what he would have said is the same thing he said before, is that Mia is crazy, you know, she's vindictive, I didn't do it. But the facts point in a much different direction.

Amy Ziering 18:00
I have a slightly different answer; I mean I - to answer this, amplify what Kirby's saying is - Did you watch the series, Matthew, by any chance?

Matthew 18:11
I've watched all four episodes from beginning to end. Yes, I have. I can - and I have to say I have a bit of a memory for these sort of things, so I can probably give you details about difference. Some that I would like to forget to be honest.

Amy Ziering 18:24
I was curious, because your question, like, we didn't show both sides just struck me as odd. Because, you know, I don't feel like we, you know, I want to (a) say, of course, we asked Woody on more than one occasion to do an interview, and he declined, the standing offer is open for him to come and interview with us anytime we're more than welcome to - everything I'll say, as Kirby did, the show is that his voice is represented throughout, you know, in press conferences, you see him in, you know, news appearances, you hear his book, which account, you know, in his own voice accounting for what, you know, his version of events. So, I don't really feel like - I'm just surprised by a question, which says he didn't really show both sides, because...

Kirby Dick 19:02
I think he was quoting somebody, he was quoting some of the - some, you know, some criticism.

Matthew 19:11
So, let me see... So, this is revealing my unskilled - my lack of skill as an interviewer. I think what I was trying to show is, because this is, let's say, I'm watching this, my wife was very interested, but I couldn't get the link to work on the TV. So, I had to watch it a laptop, and she's gonna watch it later. So, she's asking me all kinds of questions about what is, you know, what are you seeing? And, you know, and then I, you know, I do tend not to read before doing these - read any other people's critiques or reviews, but you can, this thing has been on the news so much, so you see a few things and it's been interesting to see who's been saying what, and not, and different things. So, what struck me - and so I'm thinking, well, should I be thinking this too, you know, and I didn't, I will say I've given it some thought and I was like, but - because it struck me - But I was just curious if you had, you know, because this is something you also said about how you just kind of started following the breadcrumbs. And it led you to this story, the story finds you that - that's his side of the story has been the dominant narrative all these years. So, as far as I'm saying, this isn't like some case no one's ever heard of. And this isn't trying to be, in my opinion, some sort of true crime doc, and we're supposed to sit there and figure out what's the, you know, I think, like, I think - was it Kirby, you said, you did the investigation, and you were trying, you're, as you see it, you're trying to get to the truth. And this is what you're putting on the screen for us to see, is that fair?

Kirby Dick 20:47
Exactly. So, yeah. absolutely.

Amy Ziering 20:49
Right. And the truth doesn't have many sides, right? I think there's been a shift in last 30 years of this idea that, you know, things aren't well represented, if you don't hear from another side. But we often know that, you know, the other side has a vested interest in not telling the truth.

Matthew 21:06
Yeah. You will, I know - One thing I was going to say...

Amy Ziering 21:09
Yeah, let's go and ask Exxon what they think about climate change. Like, what, you know, whereas let's ask for investigative reporters and filmmakers who have no bias or agenda, what the evidence yielded. That's the story.

Matthew 21:23
And I know, and I think - I mean, it's worth saying, I mean, didn't they? Because you've, it was a bit laughable. I remember at the time when I heard about it, and I saw a lot of comments on social media, but they tried to get you to not be able to use the - his audio book, excerpts from that dinner, which is like, you know, that's - it's a bit crazy, isn't it? I mean, how hard did they come at you for that, or was that just more of a kind of PR sort of stunt?

Kirby Dick 21:50
I mean, you'll have to ask them, you know, we, you know, we have very good attorneys, and they're very confident that this is, you know, it's, you know, constitutionally protected Fair Use of this. So, yeah, but yeah, that was his - that was the publisher. So yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of this, what you're seeing is really, misogyny that's deeply baked into this society, that it's hard, you know, once, particularly once you identify with somebody who's powerful or successful, to believe that that person has, you know, committed these kind of crimes. But, you know, I mean, again, it's just as you know, everything is completely corroborated in the film. And, you know, we had banks of lawyers, literally, looking at this. And, you know, we're confident with where we landed.

Matthew 22:45
Okay, and Amy, I mean one thing that strikes me is you've really as filmmakers had to win the confidence of the of the Farrows in order for them to open their - up their lives like this.

Amy Ziering 22:57
Well, it's very different in every situation, and Amy Herdy was really our point of contact for the most part throughout the shooting, and the filmmaking, but I also want to establish that there was a real, a real wall, like we don't - this isn't a collaboration, this isn't like, we keep - and, you know, we approached them and just said, 'We're gonna do what we do, and we're gonna give it a fair shake, but there's no promises otherwise', you know, and they were very reluctant and trepidatious throughout; it doesn't show on camera, but an anecdote I'll tell is Mia's actually wearing my shirt in one of the interviews because she showed up in a ratty sweatshirt for the first interview after a year of us, you know, asking her and she was like, you know, I'm done. I'm good. You know, you do what you do you, love my daughter. And then Dylan finally said, 'Mom, please do this for me'. And it was really Dylan's plea that Mia finally said, 'Okay, I'll show up'. But her act of defiance was to show up in a ratty sweatshirt, and then I was really terrified to bolt for the door. The second, you know, I looked at her, looked at me, and I'm like, you can't sit in that seat and no one's going to take you seriously if you sit there like that. And I was just wearing a silk blouse and gave her my blouse, took a cruise T- Shirt and put it on. And we did the interview. But I say that as - and what I found out much later is from that day on, she referred to me as the silk blouse lady, which I don't think was a term of endearment. But I tell that anecdote just to underline how, like, they weren't like, gee, let's go let's do this. I mean, it was really, okay. You know, as long as you follow the facts, we feel like we might be safe, but we've been burned by the media so many times. And so, it was more that dance with them than a dance of, you know.

Matthew 24:44
So, is - So, Mia reluctantly doing this, because Dylan's basically pleaded with her to go ahead, is that how you would describe it?

Amy Ziering 24:53
Dylan felt like yeah, that their story had never been heard and it always been railroaded and manipulated and contorted. And she knew the facts were on their side. And she knew from our body of work that, you know, that's what we do. You know, we don't, we don't follow stories and fairy tales - we leave that to great cineastes like Woody Allen, we follow truths. And so it was, you know, she, after that initial interview, Amy Herdy kept in touch with her and said, you know, you blew us away and we want to do this. And then she, again, she was reluctant throughout, but she was more the one who saw well, okay, maybe there's a reason to do this that might, you know, be a benefit for everybody.

Matthew 25:36
When you first started reaching out to her that'd be about 2018. Is that right?

Amy Ziering 25:41
Kirby's my factor.

Kirby Dick 25:43
Yeah, I think in 2018, right.

Matthew 25:45
I'm only asking because I think it's just interest - because I think, I mean, I think we've been doing a pretty good job of not having any spoiler alerts here. I don't know. That wasn't the point. But she was - might as well say it, I mean, it's no - that's - this is not something that's a spoiler. It's the facts of the situation: she was seven years old when this - she alleges this incident happened. And she's been - I mean, if I may say, what I found very compelling about this film is I really feel like you see it and it certainly hit me at the end on the end of the fourth episode is seeing things through the victim. However you fall - if people - I'm not trying to, you know, if someone wants to be on one side or the other, whatever, but whatever happens something traumatic definitely happened to this young woman as a child and through her life. I mean, I think that becomes quite clear, and how she has struggled with it and where she's gotten to at this point. I think that's a - its a lovely - I felt that was one of the - if there's an uplifting side to the story I think that's one of them.

Amy Ziering 26:56
Well, one of our calls was to show the long-lasting effects. A lot of people think these crimes are one offs and what's the big deal and it was just a misunderstanding and what we've learned not only from this project, but from our previous films which have dealt with sexual assault and sexual harassment, Invisible War, The Hunting Ground and On The Record - On The Record's on HBO Max, which you remind me because your purple wall colors pay homage to it.

Matthew 27:19
Okay! Happy to oblige!

Amy Ziering 27:22
To go back to HBO Max's color. So, but anyways, On The Record, which is incredible, and I do recommend to anyone listening - Oh, my God, that's a mic drop film on this. But what all those works do, but mostly On The Record and Allen v. Farrow, show is, these kinds of events are long lasting, you know, the trauma is not punctual. And it manifests in ways you know, the rest of your life. And that has a domino effect on your loved ones, on the way you operate in the world. And that was really important for us to show, you know, and we've heard from survivors, you know, post all of our films, but particular post the last two about how healing and cathartic that was to see and how they could identify and see themselves and how loved ones finally saw them and understood them from having watched Allen v. Farrow.

Matthew 28:14
Okay. I think that's, I think that's a very good point. I mean, I think maybe what we'll do is we'll take a bit of a early break here for our sponsor, and we'll be right back with Amy Ziering and Kirby Dick, the directors and producers of Allen v. Farrow.

Factual America midroll 28:30
You're listening to Factual America, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter at Alamo Pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 28:49
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with the directors and producers, Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering. HBO documentary, Allen v. Farrow, that released in February on - in February on HBO and March here in the UK on Sky and I know is available to stream on HBO Max and Now TV along with On The Record, right, which you gave a shout out to. That's available there, too. So, I'll direct this to both of you, but you know, Kirby maybe it's your turn. So, you've kind of alluded to this, but as you say, you're going down these rabbit holes. What surprised you the most in your - maybe both in the original investigation and your own investigation?

Kirby Dick 29:35
Well, I'd say first, what is the amount of supporting evidence. That was, you know, that you know, and there were multiple investigations that took place and as I said, the lead investigators in each of those investigations, state investigations, all interviewed Dylan and believed her and these are people who are professionals. That's what they do, they're able to make that judgment. One of those investigations, the New York State investigation, there was an incredible cover up, because when the investigator was moving forward and wanted to, you know, had an interview with Dylan and wanted to move it into a criminal case, that's when the cover up happened in the New York State. And it was really kind of shocking. It went all the way up to the mayor's office, in fact, and which says something about how powerful Woody Allen was. And I think, maybe now for people, it's hard to imagine, because Woody Allen's sort of waning in his power now. But he was at the peak of his power at that time, particularly in New York City, which was his town. And so, that was really one of the shocking things is the amount of cover up in that particular investigation. Because if that had moved, moved through, I think there would have been entirely different presentation of this case.

Matthew 31:01
I mean, related to that, because you kind of alluded to it, probably at the risk of libel, I won't say exactly the name of the organization, but this first study that was - I mean, that even shows up now; you do a google and the first thing that comes up is this study at Yale-New Haven or something. I mean, did you find any evidence there that it was - I mean, because it's an odd one. Because seemingly the case social workers were like, no, no, there's evidence here yet it got quashed, didn't it? I mean, or not just quashed. They just - they came out and came up with very different conclusions that then people have used and run with. But the - even the - as you, I think what was excellent was having the state prosecutor who was still around, at least when you're filming, say that, you know, that it was ridiculous. And it wasn't corroborated by anyone else.

Kirby Dick 31:58
No, that's entirely true. And one of the things that was most shocking about the Yale and Haven study is they destroyed their notes. So, they came up with a conclusion. But there was no way - and as you said, at least one of the investigators, you know, during the process, believed Dylan, that's not mentioned at all in the final report. And then, when people tried to dig into that, they said they destroyed their notes, and that was their policy, which they were part working with a state prosecutor, this was a criminal case. So every interview that Yale-New Haven did with any of the witnesses, and especially with Dylan, is evidence and would become evidence in this criminal case. So they were destroying evidence in a criminal case. I mean, it's we've talked to experts across the country, and it's just astonishing to them. That, you know, an investigator brought on by the, you know, the prosecutor would be destroying notes. Unless, you know, it just, I mean, we don't know, we don't have proof, but it really, it looks like they were covering their tracks.

Amy Ziering 33:13
What was so surprising to me, I mean, there's so much if you're a viewer, like I think every episode is full of - chock full of surprises that are shocking: watching the verite footage, Mia was this amateur cineaste. And so she filmed - who knew that there's like this trove of home videos. So it's like, you are an eyewitness yourself, and you draw your own conclusions. And you can see what's going on, right in front of your eyes. But also that there was what, you know, there were shockers throughout. But for me also there - that, you know, what Kirby and you just alluded to: the level of cover up that happened throughout the different investigations and the level of retribution and punishment that were wielded on people that were just trying to investigate this case: mind blowing, mind blowing, like, have no idea and like, if you look at our Twitter threads, you'll see justice for some of the people that, you know, were caught in the wake of this, you know, just doing their job, you know, have no agenda, have no horse in the race, have no side to take, you know, and just in the course of doing their job, because they might have come up with something that was damning towards one of the parties, you know, got, you know, got huge - had huge repercussions: were fired, were reprimanded, you know, kind of had witch hunt after them. So that was to me really shocking.

Matthew 34:29
Well, I mean, and not to make too much - dwell on it too much, but this whole Yale-New Haven thing, I mean, what struck me is that not only do they come to the state, they tell Woody Allen directly so he can have a, you know, they haven't even told the prosecutor, I don't think yet, and they just release it to Woody Allen's people. You can have a big, big press release right in front of, you know, proclaiming, he's been exonerated, you know.

Kirby Dick 34:52
Right on their steps, right? I mean, if they were quote, unquote, objective, I mean, that would be the last thing they would do. I mean, They did let the prosecutor know that, you know, the day before but yes, it's exactly - you're exactly right. I mean, that made it look like, you know - to be used that backdrop, you know, does strongly suggest some sort of I mean, you know, collusion because I don't think there's any other way you can say it.

Matthew 35:23
Yeah. I think you both - well, certainly you did Amy - talk about all the bombshells in this film, and, you know, one thing we do see for the first time publicly aired is the video filmed of - by Mia Farrow - of Dylan. And that's Dylan at seven, frankly, talking about the abuse. How did you? I mean, how do you make that decision as filmmakers? And did you - I mean, if you had - did you watch the whole video? And then you - I mean, these are - or make that decision whether to air it or not? And how, how did they, you know, I mean, it must have been very difficult for them to want that to see the light of day.

Amy Ziering 36:12
Well, it's - it was Dylan's decision, you know, it's not our decision to make, it's the person who's in the tape, she had ownership of the tape; Mia gave the tape to Dylan when Dylan became over 20 years old, or was of age, you know, to sort of understand then and she said, 'This is you. This is, you know, you should have this' and you know, Dylan basically put it in the closet. And we knew it existed because it sort of was part of the story and something no one had, you know, that had never gone public. And so we just asked Dylan 'Can we look at it just for our own background research, and we totally get it if you're not cool with that'. And she wasn't at first. And then one day, when we were filming on something else at the end, and we were literally packing up and there was a snowstorm coming. She had, like, a change of heart and said, 'You know, if you guys want to watch it, come watch it right here with me, I'm not going to hand it to you. But we can watch it'. And so we changed our plans and stopped everything. And we sat and watched it with her. So, that's how that came about. And then it took more time. And again, we didn't, it was no pressure. I mean, I am survivor first, her emotional health comes first. And you know, she came to us and said, if there's a way you can use this, and this will help other children and help other adults who have suffered, you can do it responsibly, even though it is so personal to me, and I am so vulnerable, you know, to having this go public, I want you to do that, because I really want to help others. So that's how it all kind of happened. But it's you know, yeah, for viewers, it's really harrowing. And it's really, I think, important to bear witness to, you know, and I'm grateful. And actually, we have heard, you know, there's been an outpouring of people saying, 'Thank God, you showed that, you know, that is so important for people to really see'.

Kirby Dick 37:49
That it's a seven year old girl; I mean, that's sometimes what people forget when they're listening to Dylan as an adult that this is, this is a seven year old girl. And that resonates, I think, because the issue of incest is so covered up in this country. It's important. And this is, you know, a testament to Dylan's courage to be a part of this is it's important to get this issue out into the public. And, you know, have a discussion around it.

Matthew 38:18
Yeah. I think - I agree. It's a harrowing - as a father myself, I mean, it was very difficult - makes very difficult watching. But I think it's handled with well, with utmost respect to, to the victim. So, but yes, it's not - it's not meant to be an easy subject matter, I grant you that. In terms of making this movie, I mean, this is - Kirby, this is sort of - I'm not trying to change tack too much - but it's more than one film, isn't it? It feels like three to four films almost in one. Is that how you thought about structuring the - trying to, to tell this story?

Kirby Dick 39:04
You mean the structure - the episode structure?

Matthew 39:06
Yeah, though, not just purely because it's episodes and so there's four of them, so there's four different films. I mean, it does feel like you have a, you have a - it's just my viewing of it, you've got an inverted - sort of episode three is sort of different. Its narrative - narrated sort of the investigation, maybe episodes one and two, are everything kind of leading up to this. Maybe they - and then you've got episode four, which I want to ask about later, but which I found very interesting and, and compelling. But is that how - I mean is that how, how did you approach telling this?

Kirby Dick 39:46
Well, I mean, it's an epic story, right? I mean, that's one of the - it's happening on so many levels. You know, it's a family story, I guess, first and foremost, right? And, of course, it's a - you have these people who are celebrities who are really acclaimed. And so there's that aspect of it, and that experience; you have, of course, Dylan is the survivor, her experience, and then you have the way the press covers it, you have the way how this story influenced the American legal system, too. Yeah, I think negatively. I mean, actually, I think, you know, many, many - the net effect of this trial and the way that it was covered meant that many survivors of abuse ended up living or being given custody, but having to live with their abuser. So they're, it's really an epic story. And we wanted to cover as well as this whole issue about the art v artists, too. And there's a, you know, there's a real analysis and, you know, of, you know, how, you know, critics and how they and film viewers should approach somebody's work like Woody Allen. So, yeah, it's an epic story. And we, but we wanted to really kind of fully cover not only the story, but the, you know, the social and cultural consequences of the story. So, it was a challenge. But, you know, we had really good editors, and, you know, we've worked in this arena, you know, in other films. So, it allowed us, you know, to approach this with sort of a history and a depth of understanding that, you know, really, I think, allowed us to pull it off, actually.

Matthew 41:34
I think that's a very important point you make, Kirby, because what I do remember, whatever I was picking up, I was never privy to any of these sort of cases, or anything is that we all kind of got a view that if there was a messy custody battle, the woman immediately alleges abuse. Now, sure, maybe a few, you know, that is maybe happened. But that is kind of - it was almost, I think, for listeners, if they, you know, don't know, or they're of a different - much younger, it is true, I think it was, you know, you just knew about these cases, and immediately, you kind of said all the, you know, there's going to be alleges of abuse, and it's a tactic to, you know, go for the kids. And I think it really undermined what I'm sure were many, many legitimate cases.

Kirby Dick 42:24
Well, the standard playbook is as soon as that happens, is to sue for custody, because then it's immediately a custody dispute, just automatically, right; it just gets thrown into the custody debate. And in nearly all cases, it's a mother trying to do the right thing and protect their child. And that's what's so sad about this is that, because I, you know, I think so many defense attorneys watched Woody Allen's effective use of this, certainly in terms of the PR campaign, and I think it really caused this strategy to proliferate. And as I said, the net result of that is that children who've been abused, are given - the fathers who are the abusers are given custody of the children who have been abused, and I don't think anyone can imagine a more horrific situation, than, you know, to have a child pulled away from her mother who's trying to protect her, and given over to the father, who's going to continue to abuse her without anyone protecting them.

Matthew 43:33
Indeed. Now, one thing I was gonna say you could have, in theory, I think you, you obviously didn't, but you could have stopped in terms of just putting the case out there you could have almost stopped after episode three, I guess. But, and I had stopped there at one point. And then my wife was like, well, have they brought up this? And have they mentioned this? And have they, you know, what about, you know, the people that defend him and all this stuff? And, you know, and I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe I'm being too well, maybe that's not really part of the story arc, or you don't have to, you know, but and then I watched episode four and all the questions I was - had in my mind that I thought would need to be asked, you answer, I feel, and I found it to be a very powerful and poignant episode. Amy, do you want to say something about that? Was that - I mean, really, is that where this is all leading? It's trying to put this into the context of how things may be changing slowly, too slowly, but have been changing of late.

Amy Ziering 44:34
Many people say it's their favorite episode, interestingly enough, which is really interesting to ask, but as Kirby and you both talked about earlier about structure, I mean, this really was an epic story. It has so many - it's so rich, and it's so important in so many ways, you know, it is as an exemplary kind of nuclear family story about child abuse and incest right there as an instructive tale about power, celebrity and impunity and the ways you know, our media kind of can give shield and be complicit with, you know, the aura of a celebrity. And then also, of course, the legal - the way that this case uniquely had such a resounding - lasting impact on the family courts, at least in the United States. So, that can't all be done in one episode. So, the short version of a long answer to your story is we had all these different elements, we were constantly juggling all these things were really interested in exploring, and then we kind of structurally figured out, you know, where and how to place it. But it was never all those questions that are - that you said are answered or addressed or raised in episode four, were always at play, it just was that made the most sense in terms of, you know, narrative arc and keeping a really tight and compelling, you know, act structure and narrative thread, investigative thread throughout, that's where it landed in the - a lot of it in the fourth episode, which, for those that haven't listened, that's really the - what happened in the wake, you know, the first three episodes like, oh, my God, these allegations happened, what really went down? And how was it portrayed? And that's what you watch in one, two, and three, and, you know, and what was covered up and what did and didn't happen. And then in episode four, you're like, what was the aftermath of all this? You know, what happened to Woody after-? You know, after all this happened, what he been doing for 30 years? What happened to Dylan? What happened to Mia? What happened to that whole family? You know, all those kids, and that's what you see. And then, you know, we address the larger social questions. And then, you know, how did it affect critics, actors, actresses, you know, the media, you know, what was that afterlife like? And so that's, and we felt that was, you know, and people are really grateful for that, as you said, they say, wow, that really answered a lot of my questions.

Matthew 46:46
Maybe what people respond to as well is that there is despite all the horrific things that obviously, Dylan has gone through and the family's gone through, and then what we go through as viewers is that, moving on, you know, Dylan has been able to, I hate to say, moving on, I feel like I'm saying something that's the wrong way of putting it, but her - she is, you know, it's there is hope, you know, in her life in terms of her own situation, in terms of relationships and things like that.

Kirby Dick 47:20
Yeah, no, she has, you know, she's really struggled with this, worked with this. But again, I think it's, it's a testament to her strength and courage. I mean, keep in mind that she, you know, first went public herself about this, and talked about her experience in 2014. And this was several years before the me, too movement. And, of course, there was a incredible blowback in many ways, you know, orchestrated by Woody Allen and his PR team, but she's, you know, she stood strong, and, and I think, provided an example, to Hollywood, to the - into the country, and maybe in some ways to the world, about, you know, the courage of coming forward, and, you know, standing by your truth. And I think, you know, her coming forward in 2014, you know, had an influence on the me, too movement happening, because remember, it came out of - me, too movement exploded out of Hollywood in a lot of ways. And so who would be paying most attention to the story, people in Hollywood, and it would be survivors in Hollywood, who would probably be paying the most attention to this story. And I think they were very influenced. And it was a real model for them when they came forward.

Matthew 48:41
I mean, you more than just allude to it in the film, but, you know, there are people who've come out very strongly, and it's part of the me, too wave about certain individuals. But yet still defend Woody Allen, do you find that hard to, to square that circle?

Amy Ziering 49:05
No, I mean, as we show in the film, and it's not to put a target. I mean, it really, we're not pointing a finger. I mean, they are susceptible to the same toxins all of us are. So, you know, they didn't have the information. I don't, I don't know, what their position would be post our series if they watch it, but I don't really, you know.

Matthew 49:24
Hence, why I didn't name any names. I was just saying, you know, but it is interesting that there are, you know, and as I think you say, you know, individuals while we've - the series does a lot on that, I mean, certainly in terms of this sort of how to deal with this: those who've grown up with an iconic figure, basically, and how to handle that.

Amy Ziering 49:49
And someone they love and have a lot of investment in. You know, this is someone very dear to very many, many, many people and we've seen that before. It's a very profound connection you have to people that have nourished you and nurtured you and to some extent and been aspirational role models for you, you know, and entertained you and yeah, I mean, he's he's had a profound influence in very many positive, positive ways on, on a wide range of people. So...

Matthew 50:17
You know, you've got this creative partnership, and you just - perhaps the best way I can put it - you deal with some heavy subjects in your films. And I know directors who can only do one of these, and then they say, 'I've got to move on to something different'. And you tend to do them one after the other. I mean, how, how do you manage that? Or, you know, how did you get started sort of making these investigative films on these very difficult subjects?

Amy Ziering 50:48
I'll let Kirby answer but since our time is coming to an end, I just also want to give a shout out because I remembered that, like, your purple walls reminded me that Invisible War and Hunting Ground are also now on HBO Max. And you can watch these - Kirby is going to talk about how we do this body of work. You can watch our whole body of work and just a shout out. Invisible War was nominated for an Oscar, won two Emmys. It's a very riveting look at assault in the military. And it was groundbreaking broke the story there, broke the story in France, broke the story in Australia. I mean, it then became sort of something that militaries around the world looked at, got letters from, so very proud of that. And actually a really riveting film with powerful, powerful subjects. Hunting Ground likewise, broke the story, the epidemic of rape on our campuses, Lady Gaga sang the song at the Oscars. It - which was a mic, honestly, a mic drop moment before we had the terror mic drop. And you know that - with survivors on stage, you know, kids from college campuses from that movie, and it went viral. And that film changed policy on campuses. And now I will turn the mic over to Kirby to talk about that oeuvre of films, which you can watch on HBO Max.

Matthew 51:58
And we will add, thanks for that shout out, and we'll put some links in the show notes. Yeah, we can definitely do that. And on to you, Kirby.

Kirby Dick 52:06
Well, I mean, for me personally, it was - I actually, you know, I'd made a number of films that were more psychological examinations of characters, of people actually, and there was always a real political element to them. And of course, Amy and I had made together a film on Jacques Derrida, which, of course, there's a lot of political elements, even as you're looking into his theory, it's laced with that, and - but I made a film called Twist of Faith about clergy sexual abuse, shortly after, you know, the Boston Globe published its expose, and what was interesting, again, I was looking at the experience of one survivor. And, you know, looking at it from kind of a psychological and sort of narrow, narrower political perspective, and the film got picked up by state legislatures who are trying to change the statute of limitations and saying, because it had showed the experiences of survivor and how this kind of abuse as a teenager, rippled for decades and decades, and so they started using the film, you know, to kind of help change laws. And that's when I realized, wow, this is, you know, I'm not only making films for a film audience, I'm making films for a much broader audience, and I should stand, I should start thinking about that. And that's, you know, and then shortly after that, you know, Amy, and I started working on The Invisible War, and we realized, I mean, this, you know, this isn't, you know, the issue of rape in the military had been covered up repeatedly, by the military, in spite of a couple of attempts to expose it they had been completely successful in suppressing it. And so we realized how important getting the story out was, and really trying to at least get it into the public consciousness. What we didn't anticipate is - Amy described - was that the impact of it, it actually changed laws. But so, you know, I think it's an important thing in our work, you know, we're dealing with issues that, you know, had been covered up that have huge, not only personal consequences, but social and political consequences. And we like to have all that at play in our films. So, we're not only making this for a film audience, we're making it for a much broader audience as well.

Matthew 54:42
Okay. And what's the key - so you guys have this creative partnership. What's the key to that success? Or anyone who's trying to have a creative partnership? How do you become - because you've been extremely successful in what you do.

Amy Ziering 54:59
I don't know about other cases, in our case, it's sort of just dumb luck. It's a magical outcome that I can't - no, I mean, it's dumb luck that our strengths are so complimentary. And that actually works. I mean, I don't know a lot, you know, I mean, like, to me, directing is a really personal thing. And you tend to be a control freak, and you tend to have a huge ego. And so that does not necessarily go with a really easy co-directing kind of situation, if that's what - that's what I'm saying. So, find two people that actually really, you know, deeply trust, respect each other, and have kind of the same and are on the same page with goals and ambitions, but then have complementary skill sets. So we're not stepping on each other's feet. And like, I know you got this. I know you got this: go. I mean, and that's how I think we work but I don't know. And that's, I mean, about the luck, like I don't, I don't know that I would be doing this - I know that our work would not be the same without that, whatever it is that we have. Does that make sense?

Matthew 56:00
Yeah.

Amy Ziering 56:01
You know, so.

Matthew 56:02
Well, I think - and what's next for the - unless, Kirby, did you want to add anything to that?

Kirby Dick 56:08
Well, I also think we're, you know, we're very ambitious with our projects. I mean, you know, I mean, I think that's extremely important to really achieve something that's, you know, really significant, you have to, you know, be so ambitious that you might fail. And we try to do that; we try to, you know, reach, we try to have an ambition that we're not certain we can reach as a, you know, because we want to, you know, we really want to land things in a powerful way.

Matthew 56:40
Okay. I think that's a very good, very good point. And what's next for the two of you in terms of projects? Is there anything you can announce or give us a little bit of a taster of or - most of the time people say, 'Oh, I've got lots of projects but I can't talk about them now'. But how about - what are you guys working on?

Amy Ziering 57:01
We're working on a deep dive into the cosmetics industry. So, that's exciting and interesting, and sort of - it's called Not So Pretty.

Kirby Dick 57:11
HBO Max.

Matthew 57:12
HBO Max. Excellent.

Amy Ziering 57:15
And then the last thing I'll say is that the four films I mentioned before, they're all equally kind of riveting. If you liked Allen v. Farrow, I suggest you check out our other films because they're as much - as much as they're documentaries, they're really also feature films; like, they're really cinematic journeys that are kind of unique. And so I just want to underline that.

Matthew 57:39
Well, I'll underline it, too. I thought the four episodes were, well, very cinematic. I mean, it's very, very well, well put together. That's - I mean, said as a layman. But I think - and maybe I'll ask one last question, if I may: what do you want the - it's probably the legacy you want for all your films - what do you want the legacy to be of Allen v. Farrow.

Amy Ziering 58:07
That you don't go out the same. You're not - you don't leave the same person you were when you came in. That you learned something. It was illuminating and enlightening, and you've been transformed: to be more empathic. To understand this issue better. To do more good in the world. I mean, that's kind of like it's - that would be what I would most want.

Matthew 58:27
Kirby.

Kirby Dick 58:28
I echo that.

Matthew 58:30
Okay. Hey, well, thank you so much, you two, for coming on. It's been a pleasure to have you on. It's been a thrill to finally meet you and not just about this film - this series, but the, you know, your other films and you've - I've described you as award winning, but I know you've been nominated for Oscars and won Emmys. So, it's been a privilege to finally meet you. And just to tell our audience, we've been talking with Amy Ziering and Kirby Dick, the filmmakers behind Allen v. Farrow, still streaming I'm sure on HBO Max, and Now TV in the UK. If you have any questions regarding how you can become a documentary director or producer like Amy Ziering and Kirby Dick, or other roles in industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com to learn more about careers in the film industry. Shout out to our engineer Freddy Besbrode and the rest of the team at This is Distorted Studios in Leeds, England. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Amy and Kirby on the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

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