Finding Hope amidst Hate in A Town Called Victoria
On January 28th 2017, a mosque in Victoria, Texas was burnt to the ground by an arsonist. In the aftermath, Victorians stood side-by-side with their Muslim neighbours. In A Town Called Victoria, Li Lu – who grew up in nearby Sugar Land, Texas – explores what happened next: to the town, its Islamic community, and to the arsonist, who was soon apprehended.
Li joins Matthew Sherwood to discuss her series, its themes, which include white supremacy, patriotism and mental illness, as well as the limits of healing. Li looks back at her own upbringing, and shares how she discovered the arson attack had happened and its effect on her. She also discusses the role played in the making of the film by her DP, Halyna Hutchins, who was tragically killed on the set of Rust in 2021.
Victoria’s story is a bittersweet one. For while there is solidarity and shared prayer, understanding and a determination to repair damage done, the arson attack also exposes deep and profound divisions: racial, political, and economic. And what’s more, this is not a story relevant to Texas alone. As Li puts it, Victoria is a ‘microcosm’ of every American community.
A Town Called Victoria needed to be a sensitively made film. It could not have found a better and more informed director than Li Lu. Enter the heart of Texas and America with Li and Matthew Sherwood.
“In terms of really reaching people, be brave and have a conversation that’s hard with someone that could use a conversation to be had with.” – Li Lu
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for A Town Called Victoria
02:35 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Li Lu, and her film, A Town Called Victoria
04:37 – Li explains what A Town Called Victoria is about
06:37 – Victoria, Texas: a microcosm of every community in America
08:16 – Victoria’s immigrants
09:23 – How Victoria’s deep divisions were exposed by the arson attack
13:44 – Li discusses A Town Called Victoria’s various themes (e.g. masculinity, patriotism, mental health)
14:39 – How Li got involved with A Town Called Victoria
15:59 – Li looks at her own immigrant background informed her approach to the making of A Town Called Victoria
17:48 – Li discusses her background in scripted film
20:10 – A Town Called Victoria’s ‘bittersweet’ essence
24:41 – Discussing Li’s friend, the late Halyna Hutchins
26:52 – What next for Li
Resources:
A Town Called Victoria
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Li Lu
More from Factual America:
Stamping Out Racist Lies: America’s Truth
The Rise and Fall of America's Most Corrupt Police Squad
Hamtramck, USA: A Multicultural Landscape
Transcript for Factual America Episode 150: Finding Hope amidst Hate in A Town Called Victoria
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:35)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. When the local mosque is burned to the ground in an apparent hate crime, the town of Victoria, Texas must overcome its age old political, racial, and economic divides to find a collective way forward. Join us as we talk with the award-winning director, Li Lu, who captures this bittersweet story about a South Texas town that is called on to rally around its neighbours at a time of extreme polarisation in American society. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:43
Li Lu, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Li Lu 00:47
Doing pretty good. It's a nice grey day here in Los Angeles. I'm enjoying the cool weather.
Matthew Sherwood 00:52
Well, sounds great. We're here in rainy, cold England, which shouldn't surprise anyone that it's rainy and cold. And we're talking about the film A Town Called Victoria. Released on PBS this week. For those of you listening - who knows when - that's mid-November 2023. You don't have to be in the US to see it. You can - various different streamers have it. It's available there. You can go to the PBS apps. We in the UK, actually on Freeview, get PBS America, so it might be showing up there. So yes, welcome, and congratulations for getting this film made and released.
Li Lu 00:59
Thank you so much.
Matthew Sherwood 01:28
So, as I mentioned, it's a three-part doc, A Town Called Victoria, and we usually start off asking our guest, what is the film about? So, maybe you can tell us, Li, what is A Town Called Victoria all about? Give us a synopsis.
Li Lu 01:56 (04:37)
Sure. So, A Town Called Victoria is a three-part docu-series that's about the arson of the Islamic Centre in Victoria, on the night that the travel ban was enacted in 2017. So, when this had happened, it kind of captured international news and went viral because of the timing of the travel ban and all the news around that at the time. What the world didn't expect, though, is that the next day hundreds of people showed up at the site of the still smouldering mosque to hold a peace rally, a prayer rally, to say that we put our arms around you in this moment of trauma, and we [...] Muslim neighbours. And that story became even bigger than the fire itself, that there could be this kindness, this sense of neighbourly connectivity, and solidarity from this South Texas town. For me, though, I really started to ask some questions, even though I was so heart-warmed by sort of what had happened with the rally and the reaction, a part of me asked the question, how long will this last? Because I grew up in the region in a town about an hour-and-a-half away, and I too share a great love of being Texan, but with the stark reality of the history and the social dynamics of the place. So, the series really talks about the aftermath, follows the trial of the arsonist, and also includes the very arduous road that ultimately did happen to rebuild the mosque.
Matthew Sherwood 03:22
Okay, and for transparency's sake, I too have South Texas roots. I was born and raised in San Antonio, and I've been to Victoria many, many years ago, probably about the time some of your guests - your subjects, actually, were moving there. So - but maybe you could tell us a little bit more, tell people, you know, most people won't know anything about Victoria, Texas. What is - is it a typ - is your typ - you know, don't let me - your view, and you've been there more recently, obviously, is it your typical American small town, how would you describe it to our listeners?
Li Lu 03:56 (6:37)
I think what's so interesting about the show is that people see that Victoria is basically a microcosm for every community in the country, big and small, in a way. But what makes it unique is that Victoria is truly South Texas, you know, you get so much of a feeling of the history of Texas, the history of [...] ago, a history of all of those things throughout the timeline that are still very present there today. Well, and you can see that the demographics is actually a majority Latinx community. Like, the halls of power, the people in power, that have been there for generations all come from a lot of the prominent settlers, especially after the Texas Revolution, who had a lot of land and industry. So, you get that sense or almost like a - it's like a fog around the town almost, this, like, sense of history, the sense of place, the sense of, you know, the rules and norms of the city. But it is kind of like a big small town. I wouldn't describe it as rural even though people try to; there's rural parts to it, but the city centre is quite populace. I think the population now is around 70 or 80,000 for the entire county, but it feels still much like the smaller town because of that sense of culture in place.
Matthew Sherwood 05:15
And as you say, in many ways, not much has changed. But then while other things certainly have - I mean, you certainly didn't have any Muslim families there 40 years ago or more, did you? And so, you've also had this community move in that was not there, within most people's living memory.
Li Lu 05:35 (08:16)
Yeah, I mean, there's been different waves of migration from the Middle Eastern countries, or even the South Asian countries; like in, I believe, if you know, the late - the early 1900s, there was a huge wave of Syrian immigrants that settled there, you can still see the remnants in town, some last names, and whatnot. But in terms of the people at the mosque, currently, you know, Dr. Hashmi, who was the founder, really, of the mosque and the community there, he moved there in early 80s, you know, after especially, you know, the important Immigration Act that opened up the doors to Asian-American immigrants, mostly, at the time. So, he came to Victoria in the early 80s. And the community has just grown since then. And they've been brought to Victoria, quite frankly, because of their industries, whether it be the medical field, education; so many people at this mosque are teachers and professors at the local colleges there. And also the oil and gas and, you know, the energy industries.
Matthew Sherwood 06:31 (09:23)
Okay. And then as your series - because I have watched all three episodes, and I know that - congratulations again, I know they've all now dropped on PBS - the arson, well, shows what some people would call good small town values and families rallying to their neighbours, but it also reveals deep divisions, as well. And I think you've already kind of mentioned this, but it's - there's a lot going on there, and it's political, racial, and economic divides. That's always been there in America, but is something kind of new that really from about the middle of the last decade on - well, to be honest with you, I was highlighting polarisation longer than that, but there certainly - it seems to have gotten on steroids, this polarisation of contemporary America, and your film captures that very well.
Li Lu 07:30
It does. And I think what we also tried to talk about very delicately, but in a strong way as well, is the concept of white supremacy; you know, it being revealed that the perpetrator was a person of colour himself, I think opened up for me a whole conversation about what power looks like in this town, what it had looked like in this town, and what are the actions, and what are the behaviours of someone in power, and how this young man seemed to want to replicate those things. So, we're getting into this interesting time where I think it's not just about what group you belong to, or binaries of a conversation, it's truly about something much more deeper, and much more personal and individual, and what attracts people to do things like this for the gains of power and for some way of feeling superior to others.
Matthew Sherwood 07:54
And so, were you already filming before the - I'm just curious - when the perpetrator, and then, you know, he's been convicted, and it turns out he's Latino, were you - was that a surprise that happened while you were filming, or was that you were already aware of that before you started filming the project?
Li Lu 08:43
I think we had started to film a little bit, and then that news came out in real time. You know, and also the news also that it was arson and not an accident, and all of that. So, it - yeah, it was all kind of blow-by-blow in a way. And at each point, the story got bigger and deeper, and touched on more vital things, which is also why I'm so grateful that this is a series because making an independent series is also quite difficult than making a one-off feature, you know, in a way, but we needed as much canvas size as possible to tell all the facets of the story because there were just too many things that were important to it.
Matthew Sherwood 09:19
Okay. I'm actually - as I think I warned you earlier - we're gonna give our listeners an early, quick early, break; so, we'll be right back with award-winning filmmaker Li Lu, writer and director of A Town Called Victoria. It's just released on PBS this week, but you can also find it on PBS apps, other streamers, and here in the UK, you might see it on PBS America.
Factual America Midroll 09:44
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 10:02
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award-winning filmmaker Li Lu, writer and director of A Town Called Victoria. It's just released on PBS this week. We were talking about this film of yours, and that it's great that you had, you know, three episodes at least to work with to capture everything; for something that seems so - pardon the phrasing - but black and white in terms of an arson and a hate crime, there is all these subtleties and nuances as well that you are capturing with your film and the different communities and how they all react. And there's elements of even, you know, how we even deal with, potentially, mental illness and things like that. There's so much, it's quite a canvas that you've painted and woven in your series.
Li Lu 11:03 (13:44)
Yeah, you know, I think it became very apparent, like, how can you talk about this without talking about masculinity, and then patriotism, and then mental health, and all those things wrapped into one. And I think that's what I'm most proud of is that we show a complex network of themes and issues, but they're not complicated, you know, it's very clear to see the ingredients. It just takes the time for us to really sit with those and carefully dissect them. And that's the conversation that we even as an audience member in this - or just a citizen - I want to have more nuanced conversations and more nuanced stories that do take a deeper look, because I know the world I live in is not binary, or simple. So, I think it was a challenge for us to provide that for folks in this time.
Matthew Sherwood 11:54
When and how did you become involved with this story?
Li Lu 11:58 (14:39)
Well, I, you know, I grew up in a town nearby, about an hour-and-a-half nearby, and so, when the fire happened, it was just an incredible slew of friends texting me, social media posts, and people that had deep connections to the uni of Victoria that were friends of mine from growing up. So, immediately, I was just heartbroken and shocked that this was happening in our collective backyard, in a way. And so, it was really, for me, something quite personal. And also, as a Texan myself, like, you know, I have very complex feelings about, you know, my own identity, in a way. I love that I am from that region. I adore the sense of neighbourly spirit that comes from being a southerner and a Texan. But there's also, as I said, you know, edges and realities, that being a person of colour and woman of colour, you know, includes when trying to survive in those spaces.
Matthew Sherwood 12:56
And you - I mean, you, I gather, doing some research, you have, well, you've already said, but you certainly have your own immigrant Texas story to tap into. I mean, how did that inform your approach, and then maybe even, what is it like growing up an immigrant in the US, but more importantly [...] Texas?
Li Lu 13:19 (15:59)
Well, I mean, so much of my upbringing was parallel to the families in Victoria, and that made us very close as just, you know, human beings and eventually, friends. So, many of the reasons why my family chose Texas as well as a place to settle had to do with the offer of what Texas has. It has the land, it has the resource, it has the opportunity for you to have the dream of, you know, having a house with a backyard, and to grow your family, you know. My brother was born in Texas, you know, and so much of that became the connective tissue between my experiences coupled with theirs. And, you know, what was it like growing up? I mean, it was hard. You know, it was beautiful and wonderful, because it was at a time when there was so much diversity in my hometown, and the region now is mostly non-white, in a way, but we all knew our place, you know, in a way. Episode One's great quote is a man who used to be a Baptist preacher, and he said, You know, there's this sort of neo-confederate way people think about place in societies like in Texas or in the south. And we all knew that we were, quote, unquote, welcome guests, in a way, as immigrants, and what's interesting, what's happening now is that those people realise we're not going anywhere. We're no longer guests. We are having more, you know, our families grow. We're voting and we're making our voices heard and that has everything to do with what all the news reports and the things coming out of Texas and the region have come to in recent days.
Matthew Sherwood 14:54
And so, you've spent a lot of time in Victoria and with the community there at the mosque. But do you - do I understand correctly, you're more from a scripted narrative background, aren't you?
Li Lu 15:08 (17:48)
I am, yeah. This is my first long form doc project. I'd done some shorts and, you know, some reporting before. But my background mostly is in narrative filmmaking. I made a feature in 2015. And I do television as well. A couple of shows for Fox, Disney, and Netflix. So yeah, this - but surprisingly, or not surprisingly, this documentary complimented every single bit of my narrative filmmaking skills, especially with story structure, and also how to present character in a way that felt real and felt personable, as well.
Matthew Sherwood 15:46
But how did you balance that with this - because you're still - I mean, you're still putting things out, you're still working, while this is all going on, because this is quite - started in 2017, and I know you were filming all the way through, I don't know how long the shoot was, but how did you balance that? Because you obviously did spend a lot at - you were on site. You're on, you know, there shooting quite a bit.
Li Lu 16:09
If you ask any independent filmmaker, I think they'd tell you the same thing: we don't get a lot of sleep! So, I balanced everything as well as I could. TV is incredibly intense, the shoot schedules are quite brutal and long lasting. And, you know, I'm so glad that, you know, we're getting a bit of parity in terms of the labour that goes into what we do. But, you know, filming this along the way was sort of as it happened. So, there are many things that I certainly, you know, I couldn't sort of expect. I had to sort of, at the drop of a pen, be in Victoria the next day for - and somethings I had to wait for, including the trial, which got pushed many times, as you would imagine. But when it came around to 2021, I really, that's when our public media funders stepped in to basically fund the post process and put us onto air. So, that from then on out, I was full-time on this project. So, I didn't do any of my other work where, you know, in my narrative sense, I fully committed to being with the editors and the team every single day. I mean, this was three years of five days a week, 10 hours a day type of work for us and our staff. So, it was a lot of hard work.
Matthew Sherwood 17:23 (20:10)
Wow. Well, that obviously comes out because - and also with everything that you were able to capture. I mean, ultimately - well, I say ultimately - this is a very bittersweet story, isn't it. I mean, it's a rallying together, there's - I mean, people should watch it. We don't try to go into details about what happens in these - in the films. But, you know, they're able to build a new mosque, but as you say, it's very nuanced, a lot of things going on. I mean, even within the Muslim community, as we should expect, we're all human. So, there's various - what was interesting is seeing the various different reactions within that community as well. And, you know, one of the main characters even moves away, and is dealing with his own mental, it's obvious, he's dealing with his own mental anguish. I mean, it's - does that the - do you think that's the end of the story, or where does this all really end?
Li Lu 18:18
I mean, we - I'm glad you picked up on the bitter sweetness of it all. Because it's true, you know, even though there's a big beautiful mosque, and it was rebuilt, there's just some things that you don't heal from, and I can tell you right now, like, for that community, there's just something that will never be gained again, something very precious was lost regarding their sense of safety, their sense of place, you know, in the country, not just in the community. And what you mentioned, for one of the characters, you know, it was a very sobering moment for him to realise, to take stock of all that had happened, and realise that he had to sort of take care of himself first. And ultimately, that meant moving away. You know, and unfortunately, as we see, there's so many stories of discrimination, hate crime, especially right now with what's going on, you know, to houses of worship, and they almost fly by our daily, you know, news feed. But I hope what the series shows you is that there are real people out there who are hurting and will hurt for quite some time, and it does, if anyone can just take one moment of their day to reach out to someone to say I see you and I care about you that is - that can mean the world to someone like that right now, especially. So, I think there's a sweetness to how people can contribute towards their community, be a good neighbour, and gratitude for all those actions, but the [...] all of that is the internal struggle and turmoil that does come and stays with you forever after something like this happens.
Matthew Sherwood 19:55
I think those are some good words of advice. I would only add is may we just turn the TV off now and put the devices down every now and then and stop watching the news and just listen to our neighbours. And, you know, I think it was probably - as someone of my age, maybe - it's probably an idealistic - I don't think it ever was quite like this way, but there was a time when people could be of different political views and things like that, and still break bread together and get along together just fine. And I think that's something that we've certainly have lost quite a bit and is apparent to me on my visits back home, when I visit Texas.
Li Lu 20:34
I think that's a good quality to think about, but I also think right now, too, people are speaking up that have not spoken up before, you know, causing a lot of, you know, difference, because people are - a lot of what the story is, too, is that, you know, this was a moment that a spotlight was thrust upon this community, and then the community really had to evolve to use that spotlight to speak up in their own voice in a way, and the evolution of how they do that, whether it be through social or political means, you know, is as much of a story as it is the arson and the trial and all those things. But I do think people should value each other and in face-to-face conversations, not the sort of, you know, one directional conversations that we love to have on social media that aren't productive, I feel; they're good to raise awareness, and we should be doing that. But in terms of really reaching people, you know, be brave and have a conversation that's hard with someone that could use the conversation to be had with.
Matthew Sherwood 21:40 (24:41)
I would agree. In terms of the, you know, the way it's shot as well, it's very, you know, some great imagery in this film - the docu-series - and very, you know, very sort of poetic in places I would say. Now, I did pick up that Halyna Hutchins was DP on the first episode, is that right? The woman who tragically was killed on the set of Rust. How did her cam work set the tone for the series?
Li Lu 22:16
Yeah, Halyna was my first creative collaborator on this project. You know, she and I had been friends for many years, before that was always searching for something to do together. And when this had happened, I called her immediately knowing that she had worked in documentaries before in Europe, and we started to film this process together. And it's also a great joy, that through this release, we're also celebrating her artistry, and who she was, and what she believed in, because she was also so heartbroken about the injustice of what had happened to this community. And we talked about style. I mean, so much of what I think the landscapes of this part of the country, sort of, you know, imbue is a sense of that Southern Gothic-ness in a way through space, and through atmosphere, and through different kinds of landscapes, and through a lot of emptiness, too, but emptiness that feels full, you know, in a way. So, we really wanted to lean in and give the Southern Gothic feeling of the town as much, you know, as much of the DNA as possible. Even in the pace, sometimes, of the edit, we really try to give you a sense of what it feels like to be in this town. Sometimes you can be in a wide open field and feel completely claustrophobic. You know, so how do we give that feeling through the cinema of the town and the series.
Matthew Sherwood 23:40
Well, I think that's very well put. I don't think too many people would have realised you can be in an open field and feel claustrophobic, and I'd never thought of it that way, but that's indeed - I know what you're talking about. I think we're coming, actually, kind of coming up to the end of our time together, Li, but I just want to ask you, what's next for you? We discussed already, you mostly - you're almost completely from a narrative scripted background, but do you have another doc in you? What do you think?
Li Lu 24:12 (26:52)
I don't know when the next doc will be. I joke to everyone, you know, my next project is probably a little sleep! But, you know, now that, you know, the actors and the writers are back to work and they gained so much with their - you know, I'm really excited to jump back into the director's chair regarding narrative work. But all the work that I do, I think has this underlying care for the world that we live in. And for people and for justice as well. So, I look forward to doing more things in more different kinds of genres and mediums after this.
Matthew Sherwood 24:44
Well, if you ever do another doc, we'd love to have you on again. And I do hope you do make another doc because I thought you did it - really enjoyed this, you know, this docu-series, and I just want to remind our listeners and our viewers that we've been talking with award-winning filmmaker Li Lu, writer and director of A Town Called Victoria. It's just released on PBS this week here in mid-November 2023. So, do check it out. It's well worth your time. So, thank you again, Li. It's been a pleasure talking with you.
Matthew Sherwood 25:24 Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 26:04
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